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08/14/2012 01:17:58 PM · #601 |
Originally posted by jagar:
My reality is that I have always lived in a county with arms control and I pay absolutely no price for my freedoms and I suffer not from the insanity and incompetence of others, where is the fantasy in that, and if fantasy there is then i share it with millions and millions of others. |
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
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08/14/2012 01:19:55 PM · #602 |
I'd like to know where you people live that you're in constant fear of others that you require personal arms at all times to defend yourself. I know statistics aren't on your side if you live in the US. Where I live the chances of being in a situation requiring such are so marginalized that it's not something I worry about, ever.
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08/14/2012 01:21:42 PM · #603 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by jagar:
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Statistics are actually in your favor ... |
Hmmm ... the statistics I heard last week were that you are about 2-1/2 times as likely to die from a gunshot if you reside in a household with a handgun than if in one without any. I'll try to find the citation for you ... |
In this instant case, the context is rather important - especially as my argument was for no guns based on risk. |
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08/14/2012 01:22:49 PM · #604 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
And packing heat will do what exactly?
Don't worry I'll answer, strangers asking if you've been to the local attraction yet.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 13:23:16. |
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08/14/2012 01:24:11 PM · #605 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I'd like to know where you people live that you're in constant fear of others that you require personal arms at all times to defend yourself. I know statistics aren't on your side if you live in the US. Where I live the chances of being in a situation requiring such are so marginalized that it's not something I worry about, ever. |
I don't worry much about Tsunami's either or forest fires or earthquakes. Floods are not something I give much thought to nor desert drought. However between Flint and Detroit, there may be a case or two made for a little awareness and assault avoidance. |
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08/14/2012 01:27:28 PM · #606 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
And packing heat will do what exactly? |
Are you saying its OK to be raped or beaten by a druken husband? Are you saying that a woman has no right to defend herself? |
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08/14/2012 01:42:40 PM · #607 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
And packing heat will do what exactly? |
Are you saying its OK to be raped or beaten by a druken husband? Are you saying that a woman has no right to defend herself? |
Yes, that's exactly what I'm advocating.
A victim with a weapon will do nothing to stop the act. By the time the perpetrator makes someone a victim, them being armed will be irrelevant. I know TV and movies would have you believe otherwise, but that's reality. |
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08/14/2012 01:46:12 PM · #608 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I don't worry much about Tsunami's either or ... |
  Yes, sometimes location is everything ...
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08/14/2012 01:53:15 PM · #609 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
And packing heat will do what exactly? |
Are you saying its OK to be raped or beaten by a druken husband? Are you saying that a woman has no right to defend herself? |
Yes, that's exactly what I'm advocating.
A victim with a weapon will do nothing to stop the act. By the time the perpetrator makes someone a victim, them being armed will be irrelevant. I know TV and movies would have you believe otherwise, but that's reality. |
Forgive me for posting this again - I simply wanted to ensure I captured it for future reference.
We certainly do live in different realities. |
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08/14/2012 02:01:38 PM · #610 |
Originally posted by jagar:
My reality is that I have always lived in a county with arms control and I pay absolutely no price for my freedoms and I suffer not from the insanity and incompetence of others, where is the fantasy in that, and if fantasy there is then i share it with millions and millions of others. |
Now you're really in fantasy land brother.
Do you really think that there is no assault in France? Do you think that no-one is beaten, robbed and stabbed? You may not have guns, but if I lived there I'd damned well want one.
The fact is that you have gotten lucky, nothing more. There are millions more in America who've never had a problem either, doesn't really matter to the person who isn't lucky though, does it?
ETA: I've ignored the fact that you used the word freedoms completely incorrectly... You mean "I pay absolutely no price for my LACK of freedoms"... Get it right man.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 14:02:59. |
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08/14/2012 02:04:29 PM · #611 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I'd like to know where you people live that you're in constant fear of others that you require personal arms at all times to defend yourself. I know statistics aren't on your side if you live in the US. Where I live the chances of being in a situation requiring such are so marginalized that it's not something I worry about, ever. |
Miami and Albuquerque... And I don't stick to the safe neighborhoods either, nor do I think I should have to... That's the whole point, I can go where I wish, and I am prepared to defend myself if needed. |
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08/14/2012 02:04:51 PM · #612 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Flash:
I wholeheartedly believe this. It is nice to know that there is no rape in your country. No violence against women by drunken men. You are very fortunate to live in such a country. |
And packing heat will do what exactly? |
Are you saying its OK to be raped or beaten by a druken husband? Are you saying that a woman has no right to defend herself? |
Yes, that's exactly what I'm advocating.
A victim with a weapon will do nothing to stop the act. By the time the perpetrator makes someone a victim, them being armed will be irrelevant. I know TV and movies would have you believe otherwise, but that's reality. |
Forgive me for posting this again - I simply wanted to ensure I captured it for future reference.
We certainly do live in different realities. |
i'm om the fence, i can see where vensor is coming form but i cold also envision a situation where i'd feel much safer knowing i was carrying and at least had a shot instead of being completely helpless.
i'm also for people having a gun in their home, i have young kids and live in a quite safe neighborhood so keeping a weapon in my home isn't worth the risk of having one, however i could also envision living in a area where the locale would justify the risk.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 14:09:48. |
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08/14/2012 02:06:15 PM · #613 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Miami and Albuquerque... And I don't stick to the safe neighborhoods either, nor do I think I should have to... That's the whole point, I can go where I wish, and I am prepared to defend myself if needed. |
shoot to kill, you dont want that lowlife suing you for their injuries. |
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08/14/2012 02:12:47 PM · #614 |
How many of you have actually been in a situation where someone had a weapon pointed at you? Just curious. I've been slashed twice and shot at once and carrying a weapon wouldn't have stopped anything. The action happens so fast you don't have time to react. It's not like Justified where Oliphant always beats the other person with his draw, it just doesn't happen.
edit - Switched stabbed with slashed. Different motions with vastly different outcomes. Wrote in haste.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 14:18:10. |
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08/14/2012 02:17:56 PM · #615 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Miami and Albuquerque... And I don't stick to the safe neighborhoods either, nor do I think I should have to... That's the whole point, I can go where I wish, and I am prepared to defend myself if needed. |
shoot to kill, you dont want that lowlife suing you for their injuries. |
Just to clarify, family members will be doing the suing. There are a very specific set of criteria required to ever use a firearm in self defense. It is the highest level of force on the force continuum. Thus it carries with it the most responsibility and accountability. Very heavy burden and one not to be taken lightly.
Training is paramount. |
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08/14/2012 02:22:02 PM · #616 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Miami and Albuquerque... And I don't stick to the safe neighborhoods either, nor do I think I should have to... That's the whole point, I can go where I wish, and I am prepared to defend myself if needed. |
shoot to kill, you dont want that lowlife suing you for their injuries. |
Just to clarify, family members will be doing the suing. There are a very specific set of criteria required to ever use a firearm in self defense. It is the highest level of force on the force continuum. Thus it carries with it the most responsibility and accountability. Very heavy burden and one not to be taken lightly.
Training is paramount. |
well at least you will doing the rest of us a favor not having to pay for years of their rehabilitation. |
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08/14/2012 02:28:36 PM · #617 |
Originally posted by Venser:
I've been slashed twice and shot at once and carrying a weapon wouldn't have stopped anything. |
And this in a country with very restrictive gun laws. Seems like it is working for you.
Awareness is the key element. There are 6 senses the body uses to alert itself of danger. Etheric is the sense most often neglected. Reaction time is the crucial element in any defense preparation plan or training. Something as simple as being aware of ambush points - like walking to a blind corner on the street next to the building instead of out by the curb. Or next to vehicles in a parking lot instead of down the center of the lane. From 21' it takes a person with a knife in hand, 1.3 seconds to stab you. From a holster, it takes 1.2-1.5 seconds to pull and fire. Meaning - the knife wins...unless you can create more distance and thus more time to react. The sequence of reaction is perception, evaluation, decision, and implemtation. It requires time. |
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08/14/2012 03:03:05 PM · #618 |
Originally posted by Venser:
How many of you have actually been in a situation where someone had a weapon pointed at you? Just curious. I've been slashed twice and shot at once and carrying a weapon wouldn't have stopped anything. The action happens so fast you don't have time to react. It's not like Justified where Oliphant always beats the other person with his draw, it just doesn't happen.
edit - Switched stabbed with slashed. Different motions with vastly different outcomes. Wrote in haste. |
Gosh, seems safe where you are. Guess you're right about how great gun control is.
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08/14/2012 03:04:03 PM · #619 |
Originally posted by Venser:
How many of you have actually been in a situation where someone had a weapon pointed at you? Just curious. I've been slashed twice and shot at once and carrying a weapon wouldn't have stopped anything. The action happens so fast you don't have time to react. It's not like Justified where Oliphant always beats the other person with his draw, it just doesn't happen.
edit - Switched stabbed with slashed. Different motions with vastly different outcomes. Wrote in haste. |
The only reason it wouldn't have stopped anything is because being armed is only part of the solution... You will find that in general, a weapon is MUCH more effective if you are both trained and ready to act. I'm guessing that you weren't any of the three. (armed, trained, or ready to act)
In short, you were/are a ready made victim. I expect you haven't seen the last robber that will greet you with a weapon in your face.
Must be pretty great to be an armed criminal in the country of the unarmed.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 15:06:05. |
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08/14/2012 03:08:28 PM · #620 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Gosh, seems safe where you are. Guess you're right about how great gun control is. |
1 - Frat party out of control in London, Ontario. Threw a person out and they didn't like it so much. Pulled a knife and I happened to be the closest person to him.
2 - In Sault Ste. Marie Michigan, someone tried to steal my bag, pulled a knife and I fought back.
3 - Detroit Michigan someone pulled a gun and tried to rob two of us. Shot from four feet away, but I think he was more afraid than we were. He braised my friends hand and ran off.
So two of those incidents were in your country, not mine.
Originally posted by Cory:
In short, you were/are a ready made victim. I expect you haven't seen the last robber that will greet you with a weapon in your face. |
Probably will be as I don't plan on visiting the US anytime soon.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 15:10:47. |
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08/14/2012 03:09:04 PM · #621 |
Originally posted by jagar:
My reality is that I have always lived in a county with arms control and I pay absolutely no price for my freedoms and I suffer not from the insanity and incompetence of others, where is the fantasy in that, and if fantasy there is then i share it with millions and millions of others. |
I just have to poke at this once more... It's proof of what I've been saying... Take away the guns, they'll find different methods.
Originally posted by Violent Crime in France:
A YOUNG man is beaten and stabbed in Grenoble. A bus is torched in a banlieue near Paris; another behind it is vandalised. Yet another, in a different suburb, is burnt to a shell. A school is set on fire. Every week brings grim reports of violence around France. The events are not linked, but the government is getting jumpy.
In Grenoble, a 23-year-old was attacked by a gang who followed him off a tram in the city centre. He was kicked to the ground and stabbed, and needed ten hours of surgery. Nothing was stolen. âOur society is not a jungle,â said Brice Hortefeux, France's interior minister, who went straight to the city when the news emerged. âThe unbelievable brutality of these thugs will be severely punished.â
Earlier this month President Nicolas Sarkozy invited to the Elysée the two bus drivers who had evacuated passengers to escape the attacks in Seine-Saint-Denis, an ethnically mixed Parisian banlieue. A masked gang had ambushed the first bus and hurled Molotov cocktails at it when the passengers got out. Mr Sarkozy called the assault âblind and barbaricâ. |
That's just golden isn't it? Looks to me as though I'm right, and you're living in an experiment that has gone exactly as I would expect. |
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08/14/2012 03:10:32 PM · #622 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Cory:
Gosh, seems safe where you are. Guess you're right about how great gun control is. |
1 - Frat party out of control in London, Ontario. Threw a person out and they didn't like it so much. Pulled a knife and I happened to be the closest person to him.
2 - In Sault Ste. Marie Michigan, someone tried to steal my bag, pulled a knife and I fought back.
3 - Detroit Michigan someone pulled a gun and tried to rob two of us. Shot from four feet away, but I think he was more afraid than we were. He braised my friends hand and ran off.
So two of those incidents were in your country, not mine. |
And you seem to be ok with this why? You really think being armed wouldn't have helped? At least you could have killed the asshole so he couldn't rob anyone else in #3 above, jesus, where's your sense of personal responsibility? |
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08/14/2012 03:27:46 PM · #623 |
And you seem to be ok with this why?
I'm not ok with it, but I accept it happens in society. I don't think arming everyone will prevent anything, and if that were to happen, would actually makes the world more dangerous to live. Here we have two people trying to give away tickets to the stampede and the first reaction from an American is to draw on them. I don't want to live in a society where the first reaction to anyone approaching you is to shoot first and maybe ask later.
You really think being armed wouldn't have helped?
In scenario #2 and #3, no it wouldn't have helped.
At least you could have killed the asshole so he couldn't rob anyone else in #3 above, jesus, where's your sense of personal responsibility?
I thought we got over vigilantism, you know, when we became civilized. I know your retort will be the perpetrator left civility at the door, but I still have some. I believe in rehabilitation over any form of incarceration. |
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08/14/2012 03:53:07 PM · #624 |
Originally posted by Venser:
And you seem to be ok with this why?
I'm not ok with it, but I accept it happens in society. I don't think arming everyone will prevent anything, and if that were to happen, would actually makes the world more dangerous to live. Here we have two people trying to give away tickets to the stampede and the first reaction from an American is to draw on them. I don't want to live in a society where the first reaction to anyone approaching you is to shoot first and maybe ask later.
You really think being armed wouldn't have helped?
In scenario #2 and #3, no it wouldn't have helped.
At least you could have killed the asshole so he couldn't rob anyone else in #3 above, jesus, where's your sense of personal responsibility?
I thought we got over vigilantism, you know, when we became civilized. I know your retort will be the perpetrator left civility at the door, but I still have some. I believe in rehabilitation over any form of incarceration. |
1. That was a cop, they're an over-nervous lot anyhow. They also body slam children. For goodness sake, they're the worst gun offenders there are, they assault people for a living... But you're actually encouraging more of this, not less, given that you want cops to be the only ones with guns apparently.
2. That's your call, but I have been in similar situations and I didn't have to give up my wallet or get shot, I'd like to think being armed might have had something to do with it.
3. Yeah, you're right, it's totally wrong to kill the guy who just shot you. My bad. Hopefully you do at least feel a little bit of guilt for not stopping him, I'd like to see you explain your reasoning to the next couple of people he robbed and shot.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 15:54:59. |
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08/14/2012 06:01:52 PM · #625 |
Originally posted by Cory:
... Same thing would hold true for a gun ban, the cost of enactment and enforcement are likely to FAR outweigh the benefits, put the money and effort somewhere where it'll make a greater difference. |
Let everyone keep their guns...but stop producing ammo. That might be a start and it would not violate your constitutional rights... Right?
Ray |
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