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08/14/2012 01:43:50 AM · #576 |
| Heh. You do realize this means I have given up hope, right? I hate the gun culture of my country. But I don't believe it can be fixed either. It is really quite sad to me. |
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08/14/2012 01:46:17 AM · #577 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Heh. You do realize this means I have given up hope, right? I hate the gun culture of my country. But I don't believe it can be fixed either. It is really quite sad to me. |
Can you not have hope for something more useful and probable? I could see our country swinging back to embracing more wholesome values in the next 20 years.... either that or it's Mad-Max time, only time will tell..
(Honestly, 20 years from now it'll probably be much like it has been for pretty much forever...)
Besides, you make a damned fine point about not glorifying these idiots.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 01:47:05. |
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08/14/2012 01:49:32 AM · #578 |
Have you read the Hunger Games trilogy?
And yes, glorifying the assholes (this is in Rant, yes?) is a pasttime all unto itself. We are not, as a people, very bright in the aggregate. |
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08/14/2012 08:47:47 AM · #579 |
the problem isn't that we have guns or can buy them, its that the people who use them dont care that they are using them on another person.
but hey, lets continue ignore the real underlying problems of society that cause such issues and keep debating whether or nor banning guns will fix the problems.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 08:48:39. |
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08/14/2012 09:32:17 AM · #580 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Texas a&m shooting
looks like another case of "the spoon making people fat again"
how many of these things before the asinine analogies go away? |
A couple of points.
1. This was a residence.
2. The occupant was being evicted - thus being served papers by the constable. Suspect he was highly agitated before being served.
3. A black weapon does not equate to an "automatic".
4. Citing Texam A&M as the location is intentional "baiting" on the part of the reporter.
5. The ignorance of so many regarding firearm terminology is illuminating. It fuels the confusion.
Shall we now infringe on a homeowners right to bear arms? Shall we infringe on all who are being evicted?
Have lost 3 brothers in the last month - killed while riding their motorcycles by inattentant drivers. 2 were stopped waiting for traffic. Just literally run over. Was it the car that killed them or the person driving it? Obviously the car killed them as its mass and velocity was what actually terminated their life. Shall we ban cars as it would save lives? Or hold those accountable who misuse their vehicle? |
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08/14/2012 10:17:00 AM · #581 |
| In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
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08/14/2012 10:26:02 AM · #582 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Texas a&m shooting
looks like another case of "the spoon making people fat again"
how many of these things before the asinine analogies go away? |
A couple of points.
1. This was a residence.
2. The occupant was being evicted - thus being served papers by the constable. Suspect he was highly agitated before being served.
3. A black weapon does not equate to an "automatic".
4. Citing Texam A&M as the location is intentional "baiting" on the part of the reporter.
5. The ignorance of so many regarding firearm terminology is illuminating. It fuels the confusion.
Shall we now infringe on a homeowners right to bear arms? Shall we infringe on all who are being evicted?
Have lost 3 brothers in the last month - killed while riding their motorcycles by inattentant drivers. 2 were stopped waiting for traffic. Just literally run over. Was it the car that killed them or the person driving it? Obviously the car killed them as its mass and velocity was what actually terminated their life. Shall we ban cars as it would save lives? Or hold those accountable who misuse their vehicle? |
These threads bounce in an out of fact and opinion so much it makes your head spin.
There is no right or wrong here. But opinion. This thread deals with "mass or multiple" mostly random shootings.
(not that the person didn't have a reason- as sick or silly as it may be, but that several victims were random.)
I understand my post was somewhat insulting to those who want to make ludicrous analogies about spoons and guns-
but there is no need for a vast liberal media conspiracy to make it seems like mass shootings are proliferating in an effort to
promote some band-aid on a bullet hole small attempt at gun control. Its no conspiracy, it reality.
I am sorry to hear you lost friends/family in motor vehicle accidents.
Accidents are accidents- mass shootings from guns that were too easy to get- are not accidents.
anyway- banning spoons and cars because individuals can use as them dangerously as guns is fallacious false equivalence. It leads to the absurd conclusion that nothing should be banned or everything should be banned. I mean, you can jam a crucifix into someone's eye and kill them, so do crosses kill people?(besides the crucified of course- I am speaking of small decorative crosses)should they be banned? no- so why should we ban assault weapons? People would just blow everyone up if there were no guns and do real damage- thats just pure bullshit.
Look at it this way. Perhaps I like to drink wine and you like to snort PCP. While it is true I could drink six bottles of wine and drive and cause all manner of mayhem, I could also have one glass. responsibly with health benefits.
On the other hand, even freaking Timothy Leary on 2 sheets of LSD would not claim that PCP could be used responsibly or have health benefits.
So, when I try to say ban PCP, would you bring up wine and say- ban them all or nothing?
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08/14/2012 10:36:56 AM · #583 |
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
Its a good analogy, but the US is skewed as of late into sides, one of which is all about "personal responsibility" and a "survival of the fittest" mentality- not keen on cutting the poor, disenfranchised, mentally ill or hopeless any slack. Its not part of "government's responsibility" in their opinion. But they forget that building jails and hospitals ultimately will be, as well as mopping up. |
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08/14/2012 10:53:50 AM · #584 |
When i read this thread (which admittedly is too often) I always think of this quote by the eight century Tibetan sage.
The hostile multitudes are vast as space ΓΆ€“
What chance is there that all should be subdued?
Let but this angry mind be overthrown
And every foe is then and there destroyed.
-- Shantideva
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08/14/2012 11:21:56 AM · #585 |
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
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08/14/2012 11:24:38 AM · #586 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
.....
Accidents are accidents- mass shootings from guns that were too easy to get- are not accidents.
... |
I tend to disagree with this premise.. Many, if not most, accidents are not just accidents. They are often the result of irresponsibility of some sort, often on behalf of both parties. |
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08/14/2012 11:25:58 AM · #587 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
...
Look at it this way. Perhaps I like to drink wine and you like to snort PCP. While it is true I could drink six bottles of wine and drive and cause all manner of mayhem, I could also have one glass. responsibly with health benefits.
On the other hand, even freaking Timothy Leary on 2 sheets of LSD would not claim that PCP could be used responsibly or have health benefits.
So, when I try to say ban PCP, would you bring up wine and say- ban them all or nothing? |
That's an easy answer... Because it's a scary slippery slope. |
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08/14/2012 11:43:41 AM · #588 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out.
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08/14/2012 11:52:47 AM · #589 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Good to see you coming around. |
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08/14/2012 12:01:55 PM · #590 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Texas a&m shooting
looks like another case of "the spoon making people fat again"
how many of these things before the asinine analogies go away? |
A couple of points.
1. This was a residence.
2. The occupant was being evicted - thus being served papers by the constable. Suspect he was highly agitated before being served.
3. A black weapon does not equate to an "automatic".
4. Citing Texam A&M as the location is intentional "baiting" on the part of the reporter.
5. The ignorance of so many regarding firearm terminology is illuminating. It fuels the confusion.
Shall we now infringe on a homeowners right to bear arms? Shall we infringe on all who are being evicted?
Have lost 3 brothers in the last month - killed while riding their motorcycles by inattentant drivers. 2 were stopped waiting for traffic. Just literally run over. Was it the car that killed them or the person driving it? Obviously the car killed them as its mass and velocity was what actually terminated their life. Shall we ban cars as it would save lives? Or hold those accountable who misuse their vehicle? |
These threads bounce in an out of fact and opinion so much it makes your head spin.
There is no right or wrong here. But opinion. This thread deals with "mass or multiple" mostly random shootings.
(not that the person didn't have a reason- as sick or silly as it may be, but that several victims were random.)
I understand my post was somewhat insulting to those who want to make ludicrous analogies about spoons and guns-
but there is no need for a vast liberal media conspiracy to make it seems like mass shootings are proliferating in an effort to
promote some band-aid on a bullet hole small attempt at gun control. Its no conspiracy, it reality.
I am sorry to hear you lost friends/family in motor vehicle accidents.
Accidents are accidents- mass shootings from guns that were too easy to get- are not accidents.
anyway- banning spoons and cars because individuals can use as them dangerously as guns is fallacious false equivalence. It leads to the absurd conclusion that nothing should be banned or everything should be banned. I mean, you can jam a crucifix into someone's eye and kill them, so do crosses kill people?(besides the crucified of course- I am speaking of small decorative crosses)should they be banned? no- so why should we ban assault weapons? People would just blow everyone up if there were no guns and do real damage- thats just pure bullshit.
Look at it this way. Perhaps I like to drink wine and you like to snort PCP. While it is true I could drink six bottles of wine and drive and cause all manner of mayhem, I could also have one glass. responsibly with health benefits.
On the other hand, even freaking Timothy Leary on 2 sheets of LSD would not claim that PCP could be used responsibly or have health benefits.
So, when I try to say ban PCP, would you bring up wine and say- ban them all or nothing? |
I must be confused on what you are proposing. Restrict Automatic weapons? They already are. Restrict handguns from the public square? They already are without a license and training (except Vermont). Restrict any weapons from various buildings, government agencies and schools? They already are? Restrict firearms from the mentally ill and those adjucated as such? They already are.
So what are you saying needs to change? Restrict them from those about to be evicted? Restrict them from poor communities due to the crime rate?
The reason the "details" are important to persons like me is I keep reading posts about how this or that should be restricted/illegal/banned and in many cases it already is. So either the person posting doesn't understand this or they want something more. The "more" is the question. What is your "more"?
How would you have prevented the Colorado Theater shooting? Stop internet sales of ammunition? Have a tracking system that accounts for each round purchased and expended and how many of a given armament one can posess at a time? How would you have stopped the evicted man from shooting the constable? No firearms in the house? No firearms for anyone down on their luck, lost their job, losing their home?
These seem like reasonable questions to me. |
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08/14/2012 12:02:19 PM · #591 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
.....
Accidents are accidents- mass shootings from guns that were too easy to get- are not accidents.
... |
I tend to disagree with this premise.. Many, if not most, accidents are not just accidents. They are often the result of irresponsibility of some sort, often on behalf of both parties. |
you can get philosophical, "there are no accidents" etc. - but its more about "forseeability."
Negligence is much different than recklessness, even more removed than intentional theater shootings.
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08/14/2012 12:13:18 PM · #592 |
Originally posted by jagar:
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Statistics are actually in your favor - meaning, compared to the vast numbers of persons living on earth at any given time, the number under assault and requiring a firearm for personal protection is rather small. So merely based on risk, there is no need for firearms. But is that the question? Or is the question really - what risks do you wish to be prepared for? Fire? Flat tire? Medical emergency? Power outtage? Assault? Tsunami? Earthquake?
Many are perfectly comfortable not preparing for an assault. Some never check the air in their spare tire or have fire extinguishers in their homes. Seems like a choice issue to me. |
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08/14/2012 12:26:09 PM · #593 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Good to see you coming around. |
You obviously can't see the irony of him being armed with the gun he took from your kitchen before you kicked him out. |
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08/14/2012 12:30:29 PM · #594 |
Originally posted by jagar:
You obviously can't see the irony of him being armed with the gun he took from your kitchen before you kicked him out. |
But if you now purchase a weapon to defend yourself, we're back at parity and everyone is happy and safe. |
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08/14/2012 12:49:01 PM · #595 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Good to see you coming around. |
You obviously can't see the irony of him being armed with the gun he took from your kitchen before you kicked him out. |
You're obviously imagining things.. That imagination makes you an impressive and amazing artist and photographer whom I admire.
Unfortunately, it seems to completely screw up your ability to form a reasonable argument, as fantasy intermixes with reality for you far too readily for my tastes.
My point was that I will not live my life around the incompetence, insanity, and inability of others, just because they can't be responsible, doesn't mean that I should pay the price with my freedoms.
Message edited by author 2012-08-14 12:50:26. |
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08/14/2012 12:51:35 PM · #596 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I must be confused on what you are proposing. Restrict Automatic weapons? They already are. Restrict handguns from the public square? They already are without a license and training (except Vermont). Restrict any weapons from various buildings, government agencies and schools? They already are? Restrict firearms from the mentally ill and those adjucated as such? They already are.
So what are you saying needs to change? Restrict them from those about to be evicted? Restrict them from poor communities due to the crime rate?
The reason the "details" are important to persons like me is I keep reading posts about how this or that should be restricted/illegal/banned and in many cases it already is. So either the person posting doesn't understand this or they want something more. The "more" is the question. What is your "more"?
How would you have prevented the Colorado Theater shooting? Stop internet sales of ammunition? Have a tracking system that accounts for each round purchased and expended and how many of a given armament one can posess at a time? How would you have stopped the evicted man from shooting the constable? No firearms in the house? No firearms for anyone down on their luck, lost their job, losing their home?
These seem like reasonable questions to me. |
Yes, I would also like you to answer these questions... They are valid and relevant. |
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08/14/2012 12:57:40 PM · #597 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by jagar:
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Statistics are actually in your favor - meaning, compared to the vast numbers of persons living on earth at any given time, the number under assault and requiring a firearm for personal protection is rather small. So merely based on risk, there is no need for firearms. But is that the question? Or is the question really - what risks do you wish to be prepared for? Fire? Flat tire? Medical emergency? Power outtage? Assault? Tsunami? Earthquake?
Many are perfectly comfortable not preparing for an assault. Some never check the air in their spare tire or have fire extinguishers in their homes. Seems like a choice issue to me. |
There is no choice at all. You can't ban having a flat tire, you can't ban a medical emergency, you can't limit the number of tsunamis or earthquakes, it's only obvious you have to prepare for the worst in these uncontrollable situations. You can however limit how many firearms are in circulation and it's done all over the world. Your comparison is utterly ridiculous.
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08/14/2012 01:05:18 PM · #598 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by jagar:
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Statistics are actually in your favor - meaning, compared to the vast numbers of persons living on earth at any given time, the number under assault and requiring a firearm for personal protection is rather small. So merely based on risk, there is no need for firearms. But is that the question? Or is the question really - what risks do you wish to be prepared for? Fire? Flat tire? Medical emergency? Power outtage? Assault? Tsunami? Earthquake?
Many are perfectly comfortable not preparing for an assault. Some never check the air in their spare tire or have fire extinguishers in their homes. Seems like a choice issue to me. |
There is no choice at all. You can't ban having a flat tire, you can't ban a medical emergency, you can't limit the number of tsunamis or earthquakes, it's only obvious you have to prepare for the worst in these uncontrollable situations. You can however limit how many firearms are in circulation and it's done all over the world. Your comparison is utterly ridiculous. |
You can't ban being assaulted either. If you could then there would be no rapes. No robberies. No murders. No wife beatings by drunken husbands. What risks are you personally willing to prepare for. That is the only question. Flat tire? Fire? Kidnapping? Only you can answer that for yourself.
Ridiculous? I think not. |
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08/14/2012 01:12:00 PM · #599 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by jagar:
In the same way we think of our own family as a single whole unit, we should be thinking of our society as also being the same way. In a family with young kids, if we had firearms in the house or anything else that is capable of causing harm, we would certainly lock them away and if a child got his hands on a firearm that we left on the kitchen table, would we blame the child? There are perturbed, mentally retarded and dangerous people in our extended familiy, let's not leave lethal things in the kitchen |
I refuse to live in a house without knives, as I need to cut things.
I refuse to live in a house without electricity, as I need to power things
I refuse to live in a house without a stove, as I need to cook things.
No, I will not live my life around the incompetence of others, kick the fucking moron out of the house. |
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Good to see you coming around. |
You obviously can't see the irony of him being armed with the gun he took from your kitchen before you kicked him out. |
You're obviously imagining things.. That imagination makes you an impressive and amazing artist and photographer whom I admire.
Unfortunately, it seems to completely screw up your ability to form a reasonable argument, as fantasy intermixes with reality for you far too readily for my tastes.
My point was that I will not live my life around the incompetence, insanity, and inability of others, just because they can't be responsible, doesn't mean that I should pay the price with my freedoms. |
My reality is that I have always lived in a county with arms control and I pay absolutely no price for my freedoms and I suffer not from the insanity and incompetence of others, where is the fantasy in that, and if fantasy there is then i share it with millions and millions of others. |
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08/14/2012 01:16:42 PM · #600 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by jagar:
You refuse to live in a house without a gun , as you need to protect it from the moron you kicked out. |
Statistics are actually in your favor ... |
Hmmm ... the statistics I heard last week were that you are about 2-1/2 times as likely to die from a gunshot if you reside in a household with a handgun than if in one without any. I'll try to find the citation for you ... |
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