expert editing - creating backgrounds

05/24/2012 12:49:15 PM · #1

Since we haven't had a good controversial subject in a day or so.

i know we can create a background in Photoshop for expert editing but to what extent are we allowed to do this?

since someone mentioned this in another thread i got me thinking, suppose i actually took the time to model and render and background in a 3D software package and then use it as a background for my image, im sure it would be frowned upon, but...

would that even be illegal???

discuss...

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/24/2012 12:54:37 PM · #2

Three things:

Your submission must be:
composed only from photographs taken after the challenge is announced and before the deadline...

but,

You may:
apply a full range of editing tools to all or part of your entry.

Then again,

You may not:
add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing.

Now, if they were really drilling down on the part that I underlined, more than one of my submissions would have been disqualified already.

As far as rendered graphics go, I'd say it was illegal, but I think we need a ruling*. This affects my entry as well. Now I'm paranoid!

ETA: How many pictures in the rain challenge used artificially generated rain or lightning? Does that break the "graphics" rule?
* - (because these rules appear to be contradictory or at the very least a little subjective)

Message edited by author 2012-05-24 12:58:47.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/24/2012 12:59:42 PM · #3

If you create/modify the BG within Photoshop (or whatever photo-editing program you're using) it should be legal under the Expert rule set.

Originally posted by Expert Rules:

You may:
â�¢ apply a full range of editing tools to all or part of your entry.

IMO, something created in another program (e.g. 3-D rendering program) and imported into Photoshop would qualify as "clip art" and thus be illegal; it is not "part of your entry" nor a photograph you've taken at the time you are creating it ...

Others may feel differently ...

05/24/2012 12:59:48 PM · #4

Originally posted by adigitalromance:

Three things:

Your submission must be:
composed only from photographs taken after the challenge is announced and before the deadline...

but,

You may:
apply a full range of editing tools to all or part of your entry.

Then again,

You may not:
add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing.

Now, if they were really drilling down on the part that I underlined, more than one of my submissions would have been disqualified already.

As far as rendered graphics go, I'd say it was illegal, but I think we need a ruling. This affects my entry as well. Now I'm paranoid!

ETA: How many pictures in the rain challenge used artificially generated rain or lightning? Does that break the "graphics" rule?

i have used a gradient as a background on more than one occasion and recently one of mine got validated. i also cant see how adding the rain would be illegal either, wasnt that the whole point of making it expert editing?

i cant see how painting in certian objects like rain or backdrops are illegal, but my example is a bit severe.

Message edited by author 2012-05-24 13:08:30.

05/24/2012 01:03:32 PM · #5

The composed only from photographs part is worrying me now.

Surely the orb in this photo:

The fire in this one:

and even the "lights" in this one are not "composed only from photographs"

But they fall under the "full range of editing tools," right?

I hope I'm not going to retroactively DQ any of my entries! However, I did disclose the editing techniques in my entries to the SC. (I'm only speculating that the orb in Gyaban's image is "generated" in photoshop.)

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

05/24/2012 01:23:24 PM · #6

Originally posted by adigitalromance:

The composed only from photographs part is worrying me now.

Surely the orb in this photo:

The fire in this one:

and even the "lights" in this one are not "composed only from photographs"

But they fall under the "full range of editing tools," right?

I hope I'm not going to retroactively DQ any of my entries! However, I did disclose the editing techniques in my entries to the SC. (I'm only speculating that the orb in Gyaban's image is "generated" in photoshop.)

Confusing right? Every time this sort of thing is ask you get a different answer from the SC. I've had ideas for challenges in the past that I just ended up not submitting because the rule interpretations are very fuzzy and you can't even get a definitive answer even when you ask before the challenge. It's all a crap shoot. IMO, the way the rules are currently stated you should not be able to create clipart and use it so the first two in your example should have been DQed.

JamesDowning

Sony SLT-A33

Sony SAL-1855 DT 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

05/24/2012 01:38:20 PM · #7

Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

05/24/2012 01:43:26 PM · #8

Originally posted by yanko:

IMO, the way the rules are currently stated you should not be able to create clipart and use it so the first two in your example should have been DQed.

I don't think creating any part of the image yourself can be categorised as clip art because you have created it, I believe by clip art they mean you cannot go to a clip art disc or other clip art resource and use any of those images in yours. I believe if you paint something yourself from a standard paint brush (not a shaped brush such as the blade of grass brush etc) then you are pretty much ok... Well that's my understanding of it after an SC message recently.

ETA: Spelling and even worse grammar than usual lol.

Message edited by author 2012-05-24 13:45:00.

05/24/2012 01:50:20 PM · #9

Originally posted by JamesDowning:

Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

now that is definitely illegal.

05/24/2012 02:45:06 PM · #10

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

now that is definitely illegal.

I'm not so sure about that.

Sony Sonnar FE 2.8 35mm ZA

05/24/2012 02:49:41 PM · #11

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

now that is definitely illegal.

I'm not so sure about that.

i'm trying to find an example, there was someone who took and image of a wine glass in front of another picture they took earlier... i forget what challenge it was for.

jagar

Samsung Galaxy S9/S9+

05/24/2012 02:51:40 PM · #12

Could we not do all this in minimal ;-)

05/24/2012 02:51:40 PM · #13

It all depends on how the picture is used I believe, if it becomes a prominent part of the picture then it could be eligible for DQ also if it misleads people in to thinking they are not looking at a picture then it's also eligible for DQ. Not fact but that's how I see it from previous DQs and discussions.

05/24/2012 02:53:12 PM · #14

Originally posted by jagar:

Could we not do all this in minimal ;-)

well if you were to somehow place your computer screen or printed image behind your subject...

05/24/2012 02:53:58 PM · #15

Originally posted by Mark-A:

i agree, but how do you not do that with a background?

05/24/2012 02:55:18 PM · #16

Originally posted by mike_311:

i'm trying to find an example, there was someone who took and image of a wine glass in front of another picture they took earlier... i forget what challenge it was for.

05/24/2012 02:55:20 PM · #17

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

now that is definitely illegal.

I'm not so sure about that.

i'm trying to find an example, there was someone who took and image of a wine glass in front of another picture they took earlier... i forget what challenge it was for.

That was Advanced, I believe.

05/24/2012 02:56:20 PM · #18

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by JamesDowning:
Just take a picture of the screen once you've got your final scene render. Insert that photo into your image. :)

now that is definitely illegal.

I'm not so sure about that.

i'm trying to find an example, there was someone who took and image of a wine glass in front of another picture they took earlier... i forget what challenge it was for.

That was Advanced, I believe.

so the same circumventing rules dont apply?

05/24/2012 02:56:42 PM · #19

Originally posted by Mark-A:

I don't think that does (or can) apply to expert.

05/24/2012 02:56:58 PM · #20

and of course...

I don't think this rule would be any different in Expert.

Wording in Expert:
You may:
include images that are clearly recognizable as existing artwork when photographing your entry. Images that could be mistaken for real objects in the scene may also be included, but must not be so prominent that voters are basically judging a photo of a photo.

Wording in Advanced:
You may:
include images that are clearly recognizable as existing artwork when photographing your entry. Images that could be mistaken for real objects in the scene may also be included, but must not be so prominent that voters are basically judging a photo of a photo.

(They are the same.)

Message edited by author 2012-05-24 14:58:32.

05/24/2012 02:58:06 PM · #21

Originally posted by adigitalromance:

and of course...

I don't think this rule would be any different in Expert.

that was going to be my first example, but the author didnt create the background photo, and the feast image they did.

05/24/2012 02:59:34 PM · #22

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Mark-A:
It all depends on how the picture is used I believe, if it becomes a prominent part of the picture then it could be eligible for DQ also if it misleads people in to thinking they are not looking at a picture then it's also eligible for DQ. Not fact but that's how I see it from previous DQs and discussions.

I don't think that does (or can) apply to expert.

so say i needed a city scape, i can pull a picture up on my screen and take a picture of it???

05/24/2012 02:59:53 PM · #23

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I don't think that does (or can) apply to expert.

I'd suspect they do still apply, any image used in the creation of the final shot should be taken within the time frame of the challenge - with the exception of textures, I don't think that rule has changed even in expert afaik.

05/24/2012 03:00:16 PM · #24

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Mark-A:
It all depends on how the picture is used I believe, if it becomes a prominent part of the picture then it could be eligible for DQ also if it misleads people in to thinking they are not looking at a picture then it's also eligible for DQ. Not fact but that's how I see it from previous DQs and discussions.

I don't think that does (or can) apply to expert.

so say i needed a city scape, i can pull a picture up on my screen and take a picture of it???

No IMO that would be a DQ'able offence.