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04/25/2012 07:52:16 PM · #276 |
| That's ok. Enjoy band. It's a futile conversation. If y'all think we aren't a country of excess then you are simply part of the problem. End of story. |
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04/26/2012 05:26:28 AM · #277 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What's your point? I hope you aren't trying to imply that I think ALL debt is excess... |
What other rhetorical or educational purpose is served by posting that statistic in the context you did? |
That CREDIT CARD debt is excessive? Wouldn't you agree? |
I wouldn't know Doc... I am mortgage free, own several pieces of property, have rather substantial investments, pay my for any purchases made via credit card when I get the bill and purchased my last two cars via cheque.
Any other questions?
Ray |
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04/26/2012 05:34:31 AM · #278 |
To my friend  Bear_Music, Perhaps I did not get my point across, but the studies you allude to would seem to support a good portion of my argument.
l will have to go back and read it again when I come back from work... I still do that, what with all the credit card expenses I incur. :O)
Ray |
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04/26/2012 07:46:33 AM · #279 |
I would venture to say that "excess" is relative -- not just amongst "us" but more globally.
I have a mortgage, some credit card debt (a heart surgery, elbow surgery, stitches in the head and a broken foot all within 2 years will do that to ya sometimes), live many weeks paycheck to paycheck, so financially, I consider us moderate.
Compared to many in other countries though, who make do with a shack, dirt floor, outdoor plumbing, no internet or even electricity, yea, I would say I live in excess.
The more we have, the more our "wants" become "needs."
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04/26/2012 09:45:45 AM · #280 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... I would hasten to point out that a great segment of your society is currently in debt due to financial issues that were brought upon them by unscrupulous investors, bankers and the like. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
This is manifestly not the case. Well... it IS true in the sense that these issues DID hurt people, but the "unscrupulous" individuals were preying upon a society infected with greed, a society that thought the bubble would never burst. In the larger sense, Americans have been living beyond their means for decades. Americans have been living in a culture that ENCOURAGES them to do this. |
Kind of "trickle down" greed, so to speak. It started at the top with the loosening of financial regulations, and then the financial institutions seduced many people into untenable situations. I don't think most ordinary people understood that a bubble existed, and certainly there was massive fraud taking place in the housing market, as attested to by the FBI years before the house of cards came tumbling down. And then, of course, some folks did get into trouble with their credit cards upon loss of a job.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
As for calorie intake, I would wager good money that what people can afford to eat is in all probability a significant factor that ought to be taken into consideration. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You'd lose your wager. Repeated studies have shown that this is not the case. Here's an article from the LA Times. |
But you are in agreement with Ray in the sense that you're arguing that obesity is not necessarily due to gluttony but rather due to other factors outside the control of many individuals, yes? |
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04/26/2012 11:58:09 AM · #281 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
What's your point? I hope you aren't trying to imply that I think ALL debt is excess... |
What other rhetorical or educational purpose is served by posting that statistic in the context you did? |
That CREDIT CARD debt is excessive? Wouldn't you agree? |
I wouldn't know Doc... I am mortgage free, own several pieces of property, have rather substantial investments, pay my for any purchases made via credit card when I get the bill and purchased my last two cars via cheque.
Any other questions?
Ray |
Take home message. If you do not have personal experience you "wouldn't know". Remind me to bring that up next time you wade in on God or Christianity. You seem to "know" plenty in that arena and you have little current personal experience there. :P Your answer is completely disingenuous ("not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.") Ray, and you "know it".
Message edited by author 2012-04-26 12:00:02. |
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04/26/2012 12:44:35 PM · #282 |
Sigh. When I've pressed for answers to simple questions in the past, I've gotten treated like a harpy. I'm detecting a double standard.
I'll certainly answer, as if it wasn't completely obvious from my last post. I think ANY credit card debt is too much debt. This is why I don't carry a balance. I think national debt AND credit debt are WAY WAY too high, and ideally we should be running a surplus, to save for a rainy day. Debt should be a temporary lubricant to facilitate short-term transactions, and nothing else*.
As much as it pains me to say this, DrAchoo has a point, even though I feel he's being a bit disingenuous with this whole "nobody will answer me" dance. Because I did, implicitly. I equated excellent parenting with a focus on frugality and fiscal responsibility, and my own lack of credit debt, so what else could that possibly mean? I have no idea why other people are unwilling to suggest our personal or even national debts (way to lead by example, government) are too high. From my point of view debt is a major security risk, making our border security look laughably insignificant in comparison, and that the single best thing we could do to preserve our integrity as a country is to actively, aggressively reduce debt. I wish my country lived the way I do. If you can afford to service a debt, you should be entirely able to set aside that same amount of money before incurring the debt, deferring any non-essential expenses until you can pay in full. We are not necessarily a country of excess... we are a country of impatience.
So again, I'd love to discuss how religion can lead to short-term thinking around debt, by defining the limits of the term as "It'll all end any day now, so why worry?" for the last 2000 years. This is a real lesson we (shouldn't) learn from religion.
* There are of course situations where unexpected and 'necessary' expenses, like emergency healthcare, can put one into unavoidable debt, but many of these situations are a symptom of the structure of society. The one I just mentioned could be mitigated by comprehensive socialized healthcare (the feelgood answer) or doing what they did in the olden days... letting people die. Our fixation on extending life at all costs is a major factor in driving our debt. If people were simply willing to boldly go into the night, they would not incur the debt needed to keep them alive. Instead, most people borrow against a future to preserve it. In my mind, it would be an entirely ethical stance to let oneself die to preserve wealth that could then be passed along to progeny or family, helping to secure their future in aggregate.
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04/26/2012 12:55:29 PM · #283 |
Sorry Mousie, you did answer the question. I think I forgot because it was before I started pointedly asking Richard, Paul and Ray (of whom none of the three have given a direct answer). Thanks for being willing to lay it on the line.
Now about that beard...if that isn't excess... |
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04/26/2012 12:59:31 PM · #284 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
So again, I'd love to discuss how religion can lead to short-term thinking around debt, by defining the limits of the term as "It'll all end any day now, so why worry?" for the last 2000 years. This is a real lesson we (shouldn't) learn from religion. |
Paul directly speaks against this idea and I think it is incorrect with orthodoxy where it exists. He does it in an argument that is not directly pertinent to the coversations (what are the particulars of the resurrection), but you still get his point which is that our hope in a resurrection should lead us to think the exact OPPOSITE of that sentiment:
I face death every dayâyes, just as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus with no more than human hopes, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
âLet us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die.â[d]
33 Do not be misled: âBad company corrupts good character.â[e] 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of GodâI say this to your shame.
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04/26/2012 01:01:09 PM · #285 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
There are of course situations where unexpected and 'necessary' expenses, like emergency healthcare, can put one into unavoidable debt, but many of these situations are a symptom of the structure of society. The one I just mentioned could be mitigated by comprehensive socialized healthcare (the feelgood answer) or doing what they did in the olden days... letting people die. |
Something like 90% of personal bankruptcies can be attributed to overwhelming medical expenses. A recent survey tried to compare the cost of some common surgeries -- emergency appendectomies ranged from about $1,500 to over $112,000 ... and that's not exactly a situation where you can walk down the street and shop for a better price, even if the hospital could tell you the cost up-front. |
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04/26/2012 01:14:02 PM · #286 |
Might I suggest that my beard is the way god intended my face to be, and the endless expenditure of money on shaving products and our obsession with youth is the real excess?
I don't really buy that, but I do feel it's a bit ironic suggesting a large beard is excessive... I'm not gluing in extensions, you know. I'm exercising restraint and discipline, if anything... it's a rather monk-like behavior. In fact, the bible pretty much mandates my appearance in a number of places.
Those lines you gave... I just don't get it. Two seem irrelevant to the topic, unless they're using coded language I haven't been indoctrinated to notice. The third:
âLet us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.â
This seems to suggest, to me, the exact opposite of what you're claiming it does. What I read is "consume now, you won't be able to tomorrow" and I don't see much flexibility in that interpretation.
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04/26/2012 01:19:32 PM · #287 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Mousie:
There are of course situations where unexpected and 'necessary' expenses, like emergency healthcare, can put one into unavoidable debt, but many of these situations are a symptom of the structure of society. The one I just mentioned could be mitigated by comprehensive socialized healthcare (the feelgood answer) or doing what they did in the olden days... letting people die. |
Something like 90% of personal bankruptcies can be attributed to overwhelming medical expenses. A recent survey tried to compare the cost of some common surgeries -- emergency appendectomies ranged from about $1,500 to over $112,000 ... and that's not exactly a situation where you can walk down the street and shop for a better price, even if the hospital could tell you the cost up-front. |
Bzzt. The link I gave you above refutes this. "More than one half of the debtors did not list any medical debt on Schedule F of their petitions.4" |
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04/26/2012 01:22:10 PM · #288 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Mousie:
There are of course situations where unexpected and 'necessary' expenses, like emergency healthcare, can put one into unavoidable debt, but many of these situations are a symptom of the structure of society. The one I just mentioned could be mitigated by comprehensive socialized healthcare (the feelgood answer) or doing what they did in the olden days... letting people die. |
Something like 90% of personal bankruptcies can be attributed to overwhelming medical expenses. A recent survey tried to compare the cost of some common surgeries -- emergency appendectomies ranged from about $1,500 to over $112,000 ... and that's not exactly a situation where you can walk down the street and shop for a better price, even if the hospital could tell you the cost up-front. |
There's always the unpleasant alternative... which doesn't incur much debt at all. However, people typically value life over lack of debt... but it's a judgement call, and a somewhat arbitrary one at that. How often do you see someone go bankrupt to pay for their neighbor's appendicitis? I think it's much more accurate to say that people value their own lives, and the lives of the people (emotionally, genetically) close to them over a lack of debt. Everyone else gets some expressions of regret, not a check.
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04/26/2012 01:23:08 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Might I suggest that my beard is the way god intended my face to be, and the endless expenditure of money on shaving products and our obsession with youth is the real excess?
I don't really buy that, but I do feel it's a bit ironic suggesting a large beard is excessive... I'm not gluing in extensions, you know. I'm exercising restraint and discipline, if anything... it's a rather monk-like behavior. In fact, the bible pretty much mandates my appearance in a number of places.
Those lines you gave... I just don't get it. Two seem irrelevant to the topic, unless they're using coded language I haven't been indoctrinated to notice. The third:
âLet us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.â
This seems to suggest, to me, the exact opposite of what you're claiming it does. What I read is "consume now, you won't be able to tomorrow" and I don't see much flexibility in that interpretation. |
Paul is wittily quoting a passage in Isaiah (out of context) but saying it should hold no sway if there is a resurrection. To paraphrase, he is saying, "hey, if there is no resurrection let us eat and drink because now is all we have. But there is a resurrection! So knock it off!"
Here's the same passage in The Message, a contemporary paraphrase. It's just interesting how they choose to treat the passage and the meaning comes through:
And why do you think I keep risking my neck in this dangerous work? I look death in the face practically every day I live. Do you think I'd do this if I wasn't convinced of your resurrection and mine as guaranteed by the resurrected Messiah Jesus? Do you think I was just trying to act heroic when I fought the wild beasts at Ephesus, hoping it wouldn't be the end of me? Not on your life! It's resurrection, resurrection, always resurrection, that undergirds what I do and say, the way I live. If there's no resurrection, "We eat, we drink, the next day we die," and that's all there is to it. But don't fool yourselves. Don't let yourselves be poisoned by this anti-resurrection loose talk. "Bad company ruins good manners."
Message edited by author 2012-04-26 13:29:54. |
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04/26/2012 01:31:32 PM · #290 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Bzzt. The link I gave you above refutes this. "More than one half of the debtors did not list any medical debt on Schedule F of their petitions.4" |
You forgot the footnote ...
Originally posted by Cited Article:
4 Of course, some debtors undoubtedly paid for their medical debts with credit cards. It is not possible to tell from the information listed in the petitions how often this occurred. |
Also, this data is from cases closed 10-12 years ago. In case you hadn't noticed, there has been substantial change to the bankrutcy laws and health care costs in the last decade, even while health care benefits have been cut and real incomes for the 99% have remained stagnant at best. I'll still bet that the number of personal bankruptcies for which medical costs are a significant contributing factor is closer to 90% than 50%, though I think it's atrocious that any family in this country has to go bankrupt to pay for medical care. |
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04/26/2012 01:33:09 PM · #291 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Might I suggest that my beard is the way god intended my face to be, and the endless expenditure of money on shaving products and our obsession with youth is the real excess? |
That's you? I always thought it was photoshopped or something. Nice. Movember gone wild?
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04/26/2012 01:33:56 PM · #292 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
There's always the unpleasant alternative... which doesn't incur much debt at all. |
I think the average funeral these days costs about $7,000 ... though perhaps there's a way to put it on the deceased's credit card ... ;-) |
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04/26/2012 01:43:29 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Bzzt. The link I gave you above refutes this. "More than one half of the debtors did not list any medical debt on Schedule F of their petitions.4" |
You forgot the footnote ...
Originally posted by Cited Article:
4 Of course, some debtors undoubtedly paid for their medical debts with credit cards. It is not possible to tell from the information listed in the petitions how often this occurred. |
Also, this data is from cases closed 10-12 years ago. In case you hadn't noticed, there has been substantial change to the bankrutcy laws and health care costs in the last decade, even while health care benefits have been cut and real incomes for the 99% have remained stagnant at best. I'll still bet that the number of personal bankruptcies for which medical costs are a significant contributing factor is closer to 90% than 50%, though I think it's atrocious that any family in this country has to go bankrupt to pay for medical care. |
Well hit me with the data Paul instead of making claims out of thin air... |
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04/26/2012 02:12:55 PM · #294 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Bzzt. The link I gave you above refutes this. "More than one half of the debtors did not list any medical debt on Schedule F of their petitions.4" |
You forgot the footnote ...
Originally posted by Cited Article:
4 Of course, some debtors undoubtedly paid for their medical debts with credit cards. It is not possible to tell from the information listed in the petitions how often this occurred. |
Also, this data is from cases closed 10-12 years ago. In case you hadn't noticed, there has been substantial change to the bankrutcy laws and health care costs in the last decade, even while health care benefits have been cut and real incomes for the 99% have remained stagnant at best. I'll still bet that the number of personal bankruptcies for which medical costs are a significant contributing factor is closer to 90% than 50%, though I think it's atrocious that any family in this country has to go bankrupt to pay for medical care. |
Well hit me with the data Paul instead of making claims out of thin air... |
This is just the first I saw when googled... //articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/bankruptcy.medical.bills_1_medical-bills-bankruptcies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH |
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04/26/2012 02:13:27 PM · #295 |
I don't have any statistics but I do personally know someone who became unemployed and ending up living off his equity and credit cards until his house went into foreclosure. He lost his home and had large credit card debt. He is now in a low rent home, underemployed, and has no way to repay the debt at this time, pretty much living hand-to-mouth as they say. I think there are probably a lot more people in his situation who have tried to live off their credit cards, just to survive, after becoming unemployed or injured, and are now either on welfare or unemployment and may never be able to pay off their debt.
There are many reasons for large credit card debt. Excess is one reason, but not the only one, and maybe not even the major one. |
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04/26/2012 02:15:32 PM · #296 |
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04/26/2012 02:20:13 PM · #297 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well hit me with the data Paul instead of making claims out of thin air... |
These seem to be only 2-3 years old ...
10 Leading Causes of Bankruptcy
Originally posted by cited article:
Medical Expenses (42%)
Recent studies have shown that 42% of all personal bankruptcies are a result of medical expenses. The study also reveals that 78% of those who filed had insurance.
Job Loss (22%)
Millions of Americans are unemployed, which makes them much more likely to file for bankruptcy. Unemployed individuals often pay for insurance out-of-pocket.
Uncontrolled Spending (15%)
Credit card bills, large mortgages, and expensive car payments contribute to bankruptcy. Uncontrolled spending habits can put Americans on a path to filing. |
OK -- medical expenses are the primary cause of *only* 42%, but note that a total of nearly 85% are due to circumstances largely beyond the debtor's control, and only about 15% due to profligate spending.
Top 5 Reasons Why People Go Bankrupt
Originally posted by Cited Article:
The bankruptcy statistics in America are alarming. The past few decades have seen a dramatic rise in the number of people that are unable to pay off their debts, and Congress has recently addressed the issue with legislation that makes it harder to qualify for this status. Following is a list of the most common causes of bankruptcy in America today.
1. Medical Expenses
A study done at Harvard University indicates that this is the biggest cause of bankruptcy, representing 62% of all personal bankruptcies. One of the interesting caveats of this study shows that 78% of filers had some form of health insurance, thus bucking the myth that medical bills affect only the uninsured. |
Well, I guess some variation in how various studies acquire and report results should be expected ... whatever, there seems to be no controversy that runaway medical expenses are far and away the leading cause of bankruptcies, not "excessive" spending, at least among those who don't have $50,000 credit card limits ...
For somparison, What Are the Causes of Bankrupcy in Canada?
Originally posted by Cited Article:
The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America. |
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04/26/2012 02:39:40 PM · #298 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well hit me with the data Paul instead of making claims out of thin air... |
These seem to be only 2-3 years old ...
10 Leading Causes of Bankruptcy
Originally posted by cited article:
Medical Expenses (42%)
Recent studies have shown that 42% of all personal bankruptcies are a result of medical expenses. The study also reveals that 78% of those who filed had insurance.
Job Loss (22%)
Millions of Americans are unemployed, which makes them much more likely to file for bankruptcy. Unemployed individuals often pay for insurance out-of-pocket.
Uncontrolled Spending (15%)
Credit card bills, large mortgages, and expensive car payments contribute to bankruptcy. Uncontrolled spending habits can put Americans on a path to filing. |
OK -- medical expenses are the primary cause of *only* 42%, but note that a total of nearly 85% are due to circumstances largely beyond the debtor's control, and only about 15% due to profligate spending.
Top 5 Reasons Why People Go Bankrupt
Originally posted by Cited Article:
The bankruptcy statistics in America are alarming. The past few decades have seen a dramatic rise in the number of people that are unable to pay off their debts, and Congress has recently addressed the issue with legislation that makes it harder to qualify for this status. Following is a list of the most common causes of bankruptcy in America today.
1. Medical Expenses
A study done at Harvard University indicates that this is the biggest cause of bankruptcy, representing 62% of all personal bankruptcies. One of the interesting caveats of this study shows that 78% of filers had some form of health insurance, thus bucking the myth that medical bills affect only the uninsured. |
Well, I guess some variation in how various studies acquire and report results should be expected ... whatever, there seems to be no controversy that runaway medical expenses are far and away the leading cause of bankruptcies, not "excessive" spending, at least among those who don't have $50,000 credit card limits ...
For somparison, What Are the Causes of Bankrupcy in Canada?
Originally posted by Cited Article:
The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America. |
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Better numbers. Of course one could ask how many of those 22% who lost their job had any sort of savings to fall back on, etc. I'm not arguing that nobody has ever declared bankruptcy or has credit card debt even though they have lived a reasonable lifestyle. I'm saying it is plainly obvious that there is TOO MUCH credit card debt and that even if only a portion of this is due to excessive spending it is still TOO MUCH.
A medical expense may teeter you into bankruptcy, but in many cases you were on the brink already just barely getting by because of personal choices like not having any sort of backup plan in case the unexpected happened. One thing you can expect is the unexpected. |
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04/26/2012 02:51:26 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Might I suggest that my beard is the way god intended my face to be, and the endless expenditure of money on shaving products and our obsession with youth is the real excess? |
That's you? I always thought it was photoshopped or something. Nice. Movember gone wild?
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Yep, that's me, half a year ago. I stopped shaving on a whim, decided I liked it, and am seeing where it goes. These days, where it goes is my soup when I lean forward while eating.
I'm getting back to my VT roots.
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04/26/2012 03:03:13 PM · #300 |
"Back Up Plans" of a even $10,000 will not save you when you become unemployed. House payments, utilities, food etc will eat it up in no time so you put everything you can on the CC just to get by hoping you will get a job soon. Welfare requires you to deplete all your savings first.
Some so-called economists say things are getting better but here in CA, I don't see it. :-(
I'm really more disturbed by the 1 trillion in student loans that people with jobs are not paying back. Maybe they are underemployed too and are living hand-to-mouth. It's tough out there if you don't have a well paying job, like doctors have. :-) |
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