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12/03/2011 08:02:08 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by sjhuls:
I don't know if him explaining why he gave me a 3 on one of my images is going to be particularly helpful to me because my first instinct would be to defend what I think is beautiful. I think the same would be true of me explaining why I gave a blurry grainy photo a 3. I could explain that it is blurry and I can't see what they were trying to do, and that it doesn't fit the challenge, but how does that help them? I think it is why groups of like minded photographers group themselves together, then they can get the feedback they are really desiring.
Honestly I don't care too much about the 1 and 3's I get on an image anymore, |
Here I really feel to dissent on a perhaps very personal perspective.
For instance, I had comments pointing out the blur was disturbing on a photo which for me would have been pointless without blur, and a remark on the amount and quality of noise he same image, which I would have corrected if it would have been noticeable with my display calibration.
All this comments are useful to me and tells me how I could perhaps strike a different balance, was I inclined to make an image which works with a larger number of viewers.
I don't mind 1s,2s and 3s. Actually I value them if there is an opinion behind. However, numbers are speechless and opinions vary. The reasons behind a 3 might be obvious to the voter, often much less so to me.
If I get a 3 from, let's say, you and ubique, how am I suppose to guess that my image might be both devoided of meaning, my idea is not clear or interesting enough, and also aestetically lacking, because my postprocessing is less than skilled?
I find it interesting that both you and ubique come from very different preferences and criteria but arrive to the same conclusions. When you score low, the reason is obvious to you and anybody else, so there is no much point on you clarifying with a comment.
I think you, ubique, Lev, Don, Ben (not attributing you any comment opinion, just citing a few names) and pretty much anybody else writing on this thread have developed solid skills conceptually, photographically and processing-wise. It's a fair assumption that most images coming from you all will be pretty darn close to what you wanted to convey, conceptually and graphically. You have a clear intent.
However, this does not apply to me and many other people. And many are rather exploring different approaches which could even seen as in contrast, without belonging to two (or 25 as for that) opposing circles of people sharing the same strict idea of what a good image is. Honestly, I doubt there are really that many people so closely alligned, more general tendencies perhaps.
These people can benefit from critical remarks from experienced phtoographers and might not get the 'obvious' side to an high or low score.
Personally,as demented as it might sound, I can give seven and 8s to images which I would never wish to take myself. If I think I can perceive the intent of the photographer and feel they did a good job following their vision,I have no problem scoring high images. I reserve 9 and 10s to images that are closer to my taste and also exceptionally well done. And can score low images which I potentially like but do not work for me, and comment explaining why. Admittedly, I very seldom would score a 3, and have basically no use for 1 and 2s.
No saying anybody should adopt the same, probably silly, criteria. Just to make clear the way I use DPC.
Sorry, it's not a complain or a judgment. I just wanted to highlight there are also people trying to improve their ability to express their vision, and they can benefit from comments and opinions.
and might well benefit from critical remarks from experienced photographers
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12/03/2011 08:05:38 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
As far as comments go, they are an instructional tool. |
I disagree. The comment box is just a box. The box morphs into a __________ (fill in the blank) box based solely upon what is written in the box and the subsequent interpretation of the box by the reader. Over the years, comments written on images have become anything from a thought box, a thank you box, a congratulations box, a recipe box (thanks,  bvy!) and also sometimes the litter box! (::pout::)
Originally posted by vawendy:
There seems to be many people who think that mentoring, feedback from others, etc., is a bad idea... |
I give up on this one. Obviously, my time would have been better spent looking up five constructive uses for the word "twee"...;-)
Message edited by author 2011-12-03 08:36:31. |
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12/03/2011 08:58:24 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by hihosilver:
I give up on this one. Obviously, my time would have been better spent looking up five constructive uses for the word "twee" ... |
You've been a bit misunderstood in this thread Mae, probably because you express yourself in such refreshingly forthright terms, and some readers not as mentally agile as yourself think you're being provocative when you're merely being curious. Maybe it happens because some readers aren't really curious about anything much. Sorry for them!
My problem in trying to answer your questions is that you ask me questions for which I have no proper answer! Or at least none that I expect would satisfy you.
Like this one:
'When exactly does a photograph transcend and blossom into the realm of art?'
and this one:
'I'm just wondering about the difference between a mentor who helps to bring out another person's vision rather than imposing their own stamp and also about the internalization effect of a mentor upon another person's vision?'
and this one (from another time):
'However, Paul, I must confess to you that your image "Mekong" completely puzzles and baffles me:
I stared and stared at this image for a long time and tried to align my inner vision so that I too may enjoy the delights of what the Jury found so enticing. I read all the notes and I'm feeling completely awkward to ask anyone to explain this image to me. So, I've resolved myself now to make peace with the pieces of this puzzle with the faith that one day the mysteries will be revealed even to one such as me.'
And then you say something like this:
'Why should the comment box fulfill any level of expectation regarding anyone's education? Why is the comment box considered the "instruction" box?
... which observation is a beacon of uncommon reason (after all, the purpose of the comment box is a question that gets 'begged' so routinely that most folks probably think you're just taking the mickey ... more pity them!).'
I don't want to sound patronising, not least because I reckon you'd see through patronising bullshit in a heartbeat, but the only advice I could ever feel comfortable giving to someone with your formidable level of curiosity and quickness of mind is that you look as much as you can at really good photographs where there is some kind of authoritative discussion of the image provided. This is a good one, and not very expensive. 500 important photographs discussed in bearable detail. I suggest that approach because I really do think that the best mentor you'll ever get is yourself. So the book's just a sort of map for self-mentoring, so that you at least stick to the roads for a while. Eventually you won't need to follow the roads at all.
(Edited to match you edit of your own post)
Message edited by author 2011-12-03 09:00:08. |
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12/03/2011 09:47:50 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'd like to know which of my photographs actually inspire an emotional response, not just technical quality. I'm not getting that information from the voting. |
This sounds like an open call, and I like your reasons, so I'll provide my score for you post-challenge and a modicum of "reasoning" behind it. As far as emotional impact, only a few photos have that. And there are sound psychological reasons for that. If half the photos we saw had emotional impact we would be on an emotional roller coaster every day. Our brains are wired to ignore most of what we see, in order to keep us from being overwhelmed by sensations. To transcend that requires a bit of trickery, of surprise.
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'm not saying that I'll agree with your reaction, I'll probably think: "What in the world is he thinking!!??" But I'm part of DPC because I want to not just please myself, but I seriously want to create things that resonate with people. Any feedback that helps that process is greatly appreciated. |
this is pretty much verbatim how I feel.
[qutoe=vawendy]Coming up with your own vision without knowledge of what's possible leaves a lot of holes. I think the best way of coming up with your vision is to gather as much information as possible -- look at other things, figure out what you like and don't like, learn all you can, and then craft your own ideals.[/quote]
I absolutely agree with you. I strongly suspect that the pre-fabricated inner vision is a myth. It might *feel* like you were born with it, but it's shaped by culture and experience, and it changes throughout your life.
And one doesn't have to succumb to mentors to achieve growth. It can occur in a circle of peers.
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12/03/2011 09:57:59 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by ubique:
...look as much as you can at really good photographs... |
Paul,
I've heard this excellent advice only once before...from  Ursula.
::beams happily::
I will purchase the book today and I look forward to the adventure.
Thank you.
P.S. The book she recommended is this one. |
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12/03/2011 10:25:19 AM · #81 |
"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. " - Wikipedia.
Go to any dictionairy and you will get a similiar definition. In short, it all comes down to "do you like it?; Does it appeal to you?; Does it fit your idea of art?" When you vote you draw on your own experiences and knowledge to judge a photograph. That's the bottom line. |
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12/03/2011 10:41:34 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I'd like to know which of my photographs actually inspire an emotional response, not just technical quality. I'm not getting that information from the voting. |
I would offer that you get plenty of information from voting - your photographs inspire or elicit VERY positive responses from people. That's what 30 ribbons indicates, in my book. Paul's opinion is just one, and often contrary. You're making lots of other people happy, including yourself, so I would offer you're not really missing anything. I kind of know what you're asking, but I don't know that you really need all that much help. I think you "see" just fine and communicate your vision very well. |
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12/03/2011 10:42:12 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
But when I try and look at it from your side (and those with similar viewpoints), it seems to me that you have already decided that you don't like or agree with most of what is presented to you here, so you don't have the same opportunity. |
I am not an expert. I have not stopped learning. I have not stopped changing my opinions.
I put a lot of effort into expressing my aesthetic precisely because I am trying to figure out what that aesthetic is.
So I have the same opportunity that you do, and hopefully I take that opportunity as often as you do. |
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12/03/2011 11:07:16 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
There seems to be many people who think that mentoring, feedback from others, etc., is a bad idea... |
I give up on this one. Obviously, my time would have been better spent looking up five constructive uses for the word "twee"...;-) [/quote]
Quick answer from my phone- I wasn't talking about your posts, Mae. I've had arguments before with people who don't think it should be legal having others see and give input on photos before a challenge. Your posts were more questioning, not forbidding.
Message edited by author 2011-12-03 11:08:30. |
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12/03/2011 11:48:28 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by Whebb:
"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. " - Wikipedia.
Go to any dictionairy and you will get a similiar definition. In short, it all comes down to "do you like it?; Does it appeal to you?; Does it fit your idea of art?" When you vote you draw on your own experiences and knowledge to judge a photograph. That's the bottom line. |
posthumous quote "I am not an expert. I have not stopped learning. I have not stopped changing my opinions.
I put a lot of effort into expressing my aesthetic precisely because I am trying to figure out what that aesthetic is.
So I have the same opportunity that you do, and hopefully I take that opportunity as often as you do."
I think Wayne that you got the answers. Art does "influence and affect one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect" and all of these are in constant development, or so we hope. One strives to evolve and evolving does not mean to like blurry pictures as some people understand this blog to be about!
A lot of works of art manage to ravish the senses without bringing more than a fleeting emotion. And I applaud Wendy vawendy for searching for more meaning in spite of the tremendous appeal that her pictures have. A sure way to create art.
We have to constantly remind ourselves that we, at DPC, do not represent the majority either because we take the pictures in question. We are participants and not just viewers. Therefore our criticism and questioning of ideas, meaning and technical knowledge is our constant struggle. We all try to climb the same mountains that can be viewed from a lot of angles, taking different paths and starting at different moments in time. |
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12/03/2011 12:30:03 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by Whebb:
"Art is the product or process of deliberately arranging items (often with symbolic significance) in a way that influences and affects one or more of the senses, emotions, and intellect. " - Wikipedia.
Go to any dictionairy and you will get a similiar definition. In short, it all comes down to "do you like it?; Does it appeal to you?; Does it fit your idea of art?" When you vote you draw on your own experiences and knowledge to judge a photograph. That's the bottom line. |
I don't know much about art, but I know what I LIKE!
-Tom Paxton, Talking Pop Art |
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12/03/2011 12:55:23 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by mcaldo:
Personally,as demented as it might sound, I can give seven and 8s to images which I would never wish to take myself. If I think I can perceive the intent of the photographer and feel they did a good job following their vision,I have no problem scoring high images. I reserve 9 and 10s to images that are closer to my taste and also exceptionally well done. And can score low images which I potentially like but do not work for me, and comment explaining why. |
This struck a chord with my thinking.
For me, it is easier to just plain appreciate and enjoy images that are not like images I wish to make myself. There are a quite a number of genres and styles that I love, but have no interest in pursuing myself. I like looking at these images, and just plain enjoying them for how fantastic they are, without thinking about how they were made or how I would make them. For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are.
But, with images that are closer to how I think, then I get into the, "How was this one made?" And from there, "How would I make it?" I still can enjoy the images just as they are, but ... I look at them more with an analytical mind rather than a plain appreciation of the art/craft.
How does that affect voting and commenting? I haven't voted here for quite a while, but I remember in the past that I found it easier to vote in challenges that were in genres and styles different than my own. Even the commenting was easier, because I could comment purely on what I saw, felt, thought, rather than possibly have a bias in my comments based on how I thought the image was or should be made.
Anyway.
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12/03/2011 01:56:50 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
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12/03/2011 01:58:57 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
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12/03/2011 03:44:34 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
No, I wouldn't, because it makes me wish I'd been there to see that scene live, wondering where it was, how cold/warm was it, was there really that much contrast in the clouds ... ;-)
On the scale of Boring - to - Inspirational, that photo would definitely fall on the positive side for me, but then I like landscapes (esp. those I haven't seen), and it's not my photo. While we sometimes (often?) are too emotionally attached to our own pictures to evaluate them objectively, I think we can sometimes also over-correct for that ... |
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12/03/2011 05:27:47 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
Sadly this comment makes me think you're not proud of it, and I wonder then why you entered it. |
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12/03/2011 05:41:21 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
Sadly this comment makes me think you're not proud of it, and I wonder then why you entered it. |
Look, talking about my picture is not the point of this thread. I don't have an interest in landscape photography. I made that particular picture while I was on holidays in the Kananaskis, and tried my hand at landscape anyway. I entered it because I liked the result, still do, mainly as a personal memory of a very good time in the Kananaskis. Saying "Boring photo, wouldn't you say?" was my attempt at face-saving since I'd just been called out by yanko that even though I said I don't have any interest in making landscape pictures, I made one (more than one actually) anyway and entered it to a challenge (more than one challenge with landscape entries).
I was trying to contribute to the thoughts in this thread with my original forum post. |
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12/03/2011 06:08:12 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
Sadly this comment makes me think you're not proud of it, and I wonder then why you entered it. |
Look, talking about my picture is not the point of this thread. I don't have an interest in landscape photography. I made that particular picture while I was on holidays in the Kananaskis, and tried my hand at landscape anyway. I entered it because I liked the result, still do, mainly as a personal memory of a very good time in the Kananaskis. Saying "Boring photo, wouldn't you say?" was my attempt at face-saving since I'd just been called out by yanko that even though I said I don't have any interest in making landscape pictures, I made one (more than one actually) anyway and entered it to a challenge (more than one challenge with landscape entries).
I was trying to contribute to the thoughts in this thread with my original forum post. |
I wasn't discussing your photograph, more your attitude toward your own entires, which I think is very much relevant to this thread. Disregard. Just one more stupid thread to drive me further away from this place. |
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12/03/2011 06:24:55 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
I wasn't discussing your photograph, more your attitude toward your own entires, which I think is very much relevant to this thread. Disregard. Just one more stupid thread to drive me further away from this place. |
No kidding! |
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12/03/2011 06:57:29 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by bohemka:
Originally posted by ursula:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by ursula:
For example, landscapes: I love them, but have no interest in making them. What I can do is look at them and just plain enjoy them for how masterful they are. |
Now you got me doubting my eyes. :P |
Yeah, well. Boring photo, wouldn't you say? |
Sadly this comment makes me think you're not proud of it, and I wonder then why you entered it. |
Look, talking about my picture is not the point of this thread. I don't have an interest in landscape photography. I made that particular picture while I was on holidays in the Kananaskis, and tried my hand at landscape anyway. I entered it because I liked the result, still do, mainly as a personal memory of a very good time in the Kananaskis. Saying "Boring photo, wouldn't you say?" was my attempt at face-saving since I'd just been called out by yanko that even though I said I don't have any interest in making landscape pictures, I made one (more than one actually) anyway and entered it to a challenge (more than one challenge with landscape entries).
I was trying to contribute to the thoughts in this thread with my original forum post. |
When you posted, I went to your profile to see if you had anything new and that's when I noticed your last photo which happen to be a landscape. I thought it was ironic and so I posted what I thought was a lightheart poke. That was really all it was. However, in hindsight I should have realized it may cause infinite sadness among the devout. My apologies. |
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12/03/2011 07:30:30 PM · #96 |
| Hey lighten up everyone, at the end of the day, remember it's just a photo, it's not going to save the world or anything. Remember why you got into photography in the first place, and take photos that please you and maybe 1 or 2 others. |
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12/03/2011 09:10:40 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Look, talking about my picture is not the point of this thread. I don't have an interest in landscape photography. I made that particular picture while I was on holidays in the Kananaskis, and tried my hand at landscape anyway. I entered it because I liked the result, still do, mainly as a personal memory of a very good time in the Kananaskis. Saying "Boring photo, wouldn't you say?" was my attempt at face-saving |
Um....no, it's exactly the point. You stepped out of your normal zone, took a spectacular landscape, and were happy with the result. The point is, you have the skills, experience, and eye to recognize, and capture this image well, and this says something about your exposure to, and from, the work that's been done by people you acknowledge as being skilled at landscapes. I can't see this as anything but an example of the way that others affect our own abilities and vision.
Freakin' awesome shot, too, if I may say so.....
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12/04/2011 03:09:24 AM · #98 |
| But no matter how good a shot may be, if it does not scratch the artistic itch you are feeling then you probably should not do more like them. I think Ursula's point resonates quite well with Paul's original post. If you apply all that well honed skill, and use all that nice equipment and the resulting image does not make you happy, then it is not a successful photograph. If a photograph you took makes you happy, then no matter what anyone else says, it works. |
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12/04/2011 05:16:14 AM · #99 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
But no matter how good a shot may be, if it does not scratch the artistic itch you are feeling then you probably should not do more like them. |
That seems quite limiting. Why give up because something didn't work this time around? If you want to pigeon-hole yourself and stick only to what works, I guess you can. I would take it as a challenge instead. Why doesn't it scratch the itch? What can you add, modify, etc. in order for it to scratch the itch? Exploration is the key, imo.
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12/04/2011 05:40:14 AM · #100 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Finally, just to reiterate: I am quite serious when I say that my comments on anything other than my 7s and above will be useful to nobody. If someone was rash enough to want to incorporate pleasing me into their photographic goals, they'd do far better considering my comments on the pictures I like, rather than those I don't. But it's a poisoned chalice. |
I'm late in responding to some wonderful posts. It's been a crazy week.
I see your point -- to a certain extent. But I still disagree. :)
I'm trying to gather all the information I can. There are photographic masterpieces that really make a statement, and that resonate with both the eye candy crowd and the more artistic crowd. ("artistic crowd" is really not the phrase for which I'm searching, but I'm tired and couldn't sleep, so the brain isn't working well. Take it for the intended meaning, not the actual phrase. :)
That's what I'm trying to create. I would love to create a masterpiece sometime in my photographic experience. Yes, I agree that looking at your comments on what you like would be extremely helpful, but it doesn't necessarily translate into what's missing in mine. Not from the technical standpoint -- I think I'm getting that feedback through the voting process. I'm more interested in why it didn't reach you. Was it close? Could the subject matter ever work with you? Was the idea a good one, but it's just missing something?
Knowledge is power -- I'm just trying to gather as much information as I can. I already know what people like about my photographs, what I'm trying to learn is what they don't like. In this case, the emotional response it received or didn't receive.
Poorly phrased, but hopefully you get the idea. :)
I'm looking forward to your offer! Now I just need to figure out what type of entry on which I'd like feedback. :)
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