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12/01/2011 03:30:54 PM · #151 |
"ultimately there is personal responsibility at some level." What you are really saying is that, for those who suffer CERTAIN THINGS it is their own damn fault and you feel obliged to deny them.
ubi caritas? merry christmas. |
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12/01/2011 03:43:04 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Lifestyle choices huh? Do you really think addiction is a choice? It may be the result of a bad choice made in the past, but it's not like every day an addict gets up and chooses to be an addict. |
Ultimately there is personal responsibility at some level. What behavior could one not attempt to blame on external or uncontrollable influences? It was my parent's fault. It's my genetics. etc. etc. etc. I understand the reality that your upbringing and your genetics DO play a role, but at the end of the day I don't think it's reasonable just to give everybody a free pass for everything they do. Expecting someone not to partake in illegal activity is the basic minimum for a society to function, no? Whether or not you think it should/shouldn't be illegal is completely separate to the argument. |
You haven't got a clue what addiction is like, do you? The fact is that for the addict, it's not really a choice anymore. It's as essential as eating. |
IMO, that might be true of very few "addictions". But for some reason, society now labels everything as an addiction and tries to use that "it's not my fault" crap on all of them: Sex, porn, shopping, video games, hoarding, etc,, and yes, even DPC.
For the record, I have more than a "clue" about what addiction is like - several, in fact - and I KNOW from personal experience and through the experience of others that even the worst addictions CAN be overcome by CHOOSING to overcome them and they will never be overcome if the individual CHOOSES not to.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
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12/01/2011 03:48:24 PM · #153 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Lifestyle choices huh? Do you really think addiction is a choice? It may be the result of a bad choice made in the past, but it's not like every day an addict gets up and chooses to be an addict. |
Ultimately there is personal responsibility at some level. What behavior could one not attempt to blame on external or uncontrollable influences? It was my parent's fault. It's my genetics. etc. etc. etc. I understand the reality that your upbringing and your genetics DO play a role, but at the end of the day I don't think it's reasonable just to give everybody a free pass for everything they do. Expecting someone not to partake in illegal activity is the basic minimum for a society to function, no? Whether or not you think it should/shouldn't be illegal is completely separate to the argument. |
You haven't got a clue what addiction is like, do you? The fact is that for the addict, it's not really a choice anymore. It's as essential as eating. |
So why do you hear about people quitting an addiction all the time?
Mothers, fathers, grandparents, brothers, sisters, neighbors, etc, etc.
Sure, addiction blows no doubt about it. But I am with Doc here... Addiction to some extent (enough) is a choice. |
And for every one that successfully quits using, how many more try and fail? |
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12/01/2011 03:52:58 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
And for every one that successfully quits using, how many more try and fail? |
As many as fail to decide to quit. |
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12/01/2011 03:56:29 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Lifestyle choices huh? Do you really think addiction is a choice? It may be the result of a bad choice made in the past, but it's not like every day an addict gets up and chooses to be an addict. |
Ultimately there is personal responsibility at some level. What behavior could one not attempt to blame on external or uncontrollable influences? It was my parent's fault. It's my genetics. etc. etc. etc. I understand the reality that your upbringing and your genetics DO play a role, but at the end of the day I don't think it's reasonable just to give everybody a free pass for everything they do. Expecting someone not to partake in illegal activity is the basic minimum for a society to function, no? Whether or not you think it should/shouldn't be illegal is completely separate to the argument. |
You haven't got a clue what addiction is like, do you? The fact is that for the addict, it's not really a choice anymore. It's as essential as eating. |
IMO, that might be true of very few "addictions". But for some reason, society now labels everything as an addiction and tries to use that "it's not my fault" crap on all of them: Sex, porn, shopping, video games, hoarding, etc,, and yes, even DPC.
For the record, I have more than a "clue" about what addiction is like - several, in fact - and I KNOW from personal experience and through the experience of others that even the worst addictions CAN be overcome by CHOOSING to overcome them and they will never be overcome if the individual CHOOSES not to.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
i have to agree it was a choice for me, a very overwelming compelling omfg your gonna die if you don't get that NOW choice, but still a choice. |
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12/01/2011 03:57:41 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
I'm guessing because they are illegal drugs and there's been a war on it since the 80's. Have you not seen the show Cops? |
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12/01/2011 04:03:36 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Lifestyle choices huh? Do you really think addiction is a choice? It may be the result of a bad choice made in the past, but it's not like every day an addict gets up and chooses to be an addict. |
Ultimately there is personal responsibility at some level. What behavior could one not attempt to blame on external or uncontrollable influences? It was my parent's fault. It's my genetics. etc. etc. etc. I understand the reality that your upbringing and your genetics DO play a role, but at the end of the day I don't think it's reasonable just to give everybody a free pass for everything they do. Expecting someone not to partake in illegal activity is the basic minimum for a society to function, no? Whether or not you think it should/shouldn't be illegal is completely separate to the argument. |
You haven't got a clue what addiction is like, do you? The fact is that for the addict, it's not really a choice anymore. It's as essential as eating. |
IMO, that might be true of very few "addictions". But for some reason, society now labels everything as an addiction and tries to use that "it's not my fault" crap on all of them: Sex, porn, shopping, video games, hoarding, etc,, and yes, even DPC.
For the record, I have more than a "clue" about what addiction is like - several, in fact - and I KNOW from personal experience and through the experience of others that even the worst addictions CAN be overcome by CHOOSING to overcome them and they will never be overcome if the individual CHOOSES not to.
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The addictions under discussion were addictions to drugs; physically and psychological addicting substances.
As if it's just a matter of choice...It's like saying "I choose to be rich." and then BOOM! you've got a net worth to rival Warren Buffet's. |
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12/01/2011 04:05:34 PM · #158 |
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat.
Message edited by author 2011-12-01 16:07:39. |
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12/01/2011 04:12:16 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
What I'm also hearing is we apparently don't have enough food/resources to help the poor, hence the favoritism. Maybe we should first address the wealthy's money hoarding addiction and then there will be enough for everyone to eat?
Message edited by author 2011-12-01 16:13:40. |
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12/01/2011 04:15:34 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
What I'm also hearing is we apparently don't have enough food/resources to help the poor, hence the favoritism. Maybe we should first address the wealthy's money hoarding addiction and then there will be enough for everyone to eat? |
But the wealthy are the "job creators"...we should all bow down at their feet and beg for permission to lick their boots, not ask them to pay more for the bounty and success living in this country has afforded them.
Message edited by author 2011-12-01 16:17:38. |
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12/01/2011 04:15:53 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
What I'm also hearing is we apparently don't have enough food/resources to help the poor, hence the favoritism. Maybe we should first address the wealthy's money hoarding addiction and then there will be enough for everyone to eat? |
uum hoarding isn't an addiction it's a mental disorder. guess that means rich ppl are mental.
Message edited by author 2011-12-01 16:16:38. |
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12/01/2011 04:16:14 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
I'm guessing because they are illegal drugs and there's been a war on it since the 80's. Have you not seen the show Cops? |
I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for a positive urinalysis - unless they are on probation maybe. |
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12/01/2011 04:19:28 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
It's their choice - eat or get high. OR, earn a living and do both. ;-)
I understand that you think you are helping people by enabling their behavior, but you are not, in my experience. |
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12/01/2011 04:22:10 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
they do, though the public shouldn't have to pay for the meals, especially if eating isn't their priority. |
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12/01/2011 04:22:51 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
It's their choice - eat or get high. OR, earn a living and do both. ;-)
I understand that you think you are helping people by enabling their behavior, but you are not, in my experience. |
No, I'd be helping people eat who otherwise would starve. |
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12/01/2011 04:25:49 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
What I'm also hearing is we apparently don't have enough food/resources to help the poor, hence the favoritism. Maybe we should first address the wealthy's money hoarding addiction and then there will be enough for everyone to eat? |
But the wealthy are the "job creators"...we should all bow down at their feet and beg for permission to lick their boots, not ask them to pay more for the bounty and success living in this country has afforded them. |
You really seem obsessed with this. I have no objection to raising taxes on the wealthy, but many of them (not all, but many) are paying more than their fair share. I don't really buy into the idea that they will respond to tax increases by folding up shop en mass, but some of them will. Taxes in the US are one of the reasons companies move out. As for the notion that "the wealthy are the job creators" - what part of that do you disagree with? Have you ever been employed by a poor person? |
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12/01/2011 04:28:11 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
It's their choice - eat or get high. OR, earn a living and do both. ;-)
I understand that you think you are helping people by enabling their behavior, but you are not, in my experience. |
No, I'd be helping people eat who otherwise would starve. |
people need to learn to help themselves. |
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12/01/2011 04:28:23 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
I'm guessing because they are illegal drugs and there's been a war on it since the 80's. Have you not seen the show Cops? |
I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for a positive urinalysis - unless they are on probation maybe. |
But is that because drug testing is usually conducted by a business like in a condition for employment? Wouldn't the government doing the same be required to act on the illegality? |
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12/01/2011 04:29:54 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
I'm guessing because they are illegal drugs and there's been a war on it since the 80's. Have you not seen the show Cops? |
I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for a positive urinalysis - unless they are on probation maybe. |
But is that because drug testing is usually conducted by a business like in a condition for employment? Wouldn't the government doing the same be required to act on the illegality? |
nope if you work for the government and you test positive they fire you just like anyone else. |
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12/01/2011 04:32:37 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spork99:
So, what I'm getting from this is: Addicts don't deserve to eat. |
It's their choice - eat or get high. OR, earn a living and do both. ;-)
I understand that you think you are helping people by enabling their behavior, but you are not, in my experience. |
No, I'd be helping people eat who otherwise would starve. |
Well, only because they traded their food stamps for cash to buy drugs. Not "All of them" obviously, but I've known people who do it all the time.
But if it makes you feel good, then have at it - just don't do it with taxpayer money and just admit you are doing it so YOU can feel good.
Obviously we are never likely to agree on this issue. I grant you that whatever your life experience, it has brought you to your conclusions and positions and me, mine. So there we are. :) |
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12/01/2011 04:37:12 PM · #171 |
| Ah, Art. Don't get mad at Spork. His conclusions were thrust upon him by his genetic makeup and environment during upbringing. That and he was breast fed until he was four. He really has no choice in the matter... ;) |
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12/01/2011 04:37:17 PM · #172 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If we find that a person getting public assistance is using illegal drugs, I assume we would put them in prison? |
Why in the world would you assume that? Nobody that I know of has proposed that. |
I'm guessing because they are illegal drugs and there's been a war on it since the 80's. Have you not seen the show Cops? |
I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for a positive urinalysis - unless they are on probation maybe. |
But is that because drug testing is usually conducted by a business like in a condition for employment? Wouldn't the government doing the same be required to act on the illegality? |
You're showing your lack of knowledge on the subject. Even the military will only issue non-judicial punishment for a positive urinalysis - and they may process you out - at least that was the case when I was in, over 20 years ago. ...ugh, that hurts to say.
It is my understanding that the drug laws all relate to "possession" with various modifiers like "with intent to distribute" etc. Other than potentially DUI, I don't think there is an actual law against having drugs in your system. Could be wrong, though. |
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12/01/2011 04:40:05 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ah, Art. Don't get mad at Spork. His conclusions were thrust upon him by his genetic makeup and environment during upbringing. That and he was breast fed until he was four. He really has no choice in the matter... ;) |
seriously u just made me spit soda all over my monitor. |
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12/01/2011 04:40:38 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ah, Art. Don't get mad at Spork. His conclusions were thrust upon him by his genetic makeup and environment during upbringing. That and he was breast fed until he was four. He really has no choice in the matter... ;) |
seriously u just made me spit soda all over my monitor. |
If it landed on the shift key you are all good... |
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12/01/2011 04:40:49 PM · #175 |
Originally posted by o2bskating:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ah, Art. Don't get mad at Spork. His conclusions were thrust upon him by his genetic makeup and environment during upbringing. That and he was breast fed until he was four. He really has no choice in the matter... ;) |
seriously u just made me spit soda all over my monitor. |
It's not your fault. |
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