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10/13/2011 05:15:55 PM · #226 |
I'd add "never lie, any time, for any reason" to that. I was going to post a link to this e-book when this thread first popped up, but someone hijacked the damn thing and it didn't seem to fit anymore. Anyway, this is an excellent read for any occasion, and argues that lying is never good, not even "small" lies that appear to protect others:
Lying. |
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10/13/2011 05:50:04 PM · #227 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I'd add "never lie, any time, for any reason" to that. I was going to post a link to this e-book when this thread first popped up, but someone hijacked the damn thing and it didn't seem to fit anymore. Anyway, this is an excellent read for any occasion, and argues that lying is never good, not even "small" lies that appear to protect others:
Lying. |
Paying truth's price is how the innocent are lured to deceit.
Message edited by author 2011-10-13 17:55:48. |
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10/13/2011 06:02:53 PM · #228 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I'd add "never lie, any time, for any reason" to that. I was going to post a link to this e-book when this thread first popped up, but someone hijacked the damn thing and it didn't seem to fit anymore. Anyway, this is an excellent read for any occasion, and argues that lying is never good, not even "small" lies that appear to protect others:
Lying. |
Can we have a Cliff Notes? What does Sammy give as the reason we would work against something evolution has taken millions of years to produce? |
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10/13/2011 06:10:15 PM · #229 |
Originally posted by TheDruid:
Originally posted by Louis:
I'd add "never lie, any time, for any reason" to that. I was going to post a link to this e-book when this thread first popped up, but someone hijacked the damn thing and it didn't seem to fit anymore. Anyway, this is an excellent read for any occasion, and argues that lying is never good, not even "small" lies that appear to protect others:
Lying. |
Paying truth's price is how the innocent are lured to deceit. |
Now THAT'S druidic. |
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10/13/2011 07:50:48 PM · #230 |
Originally posted by TheDruid:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Maybe the roomate needs to increase his online porn viewing...take care of his urges that way. |
What if he is Catholic .... every sperm is sacred ... evn sinster_leo's ... rofl |
LOLOLOL
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10/13/2011 08:44:05 PM · #231 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Louis:
I'd add "never lie, any time, for any reason" to that. I was going to post a link to this e-book when this thread first popped up, but someone hijacked the damn thing and it didn't seem to fit anymore. Anyway, this is an excellent read for any occasion, and argues that lying is never good, not even "small" lies that appear to protect others:
Lying. |
Can we have a Cliff Notes? What does Sammy give as the reason we would work against something evolution has taken millions of years to produce? |
Why are you even asking? You said earlier that human nature couldn't be trusted so why does it matter what evolution produces? Also, isn't there a commandment in your religion that specifically addresses this? In your world view lie is a sin. No exceptions. You and Louis should be in complete agreement here. |
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10/13/2011 09:40:23 PM · #232 |
| He thinks it's a "gotcha". Either he's forgotten or he thinks we've forgotten that even the world's most brilliant atheist evolutionary biologists think that it's a noble goal for humans to work against the selfish genes that have been produced by evolution. (Frankly, I wish he'd start taking 1 Timothy 6:20 seriously. Stick to your knitting, as we say up here.) |
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10/13/2011 10:23:39 PM · #233 |
So, apparently, asking questions is frowned upon in this establishment. I don't think at all like Sam Harris so I have to ask to know what he's thinking. His book is not available at either digital library I have a card for.
Louis' assumption is basically correct, but I'm willing to give Harris the benefit of an explanation. But if nobody wants to be his champion, then I guess I'll keep my preconceived views.
I guess I'll clarify just a bit to say I am asking about the seemingly contradiction between two principles which, I believe Harris holds.
1) Our morality is informed by our genetics. What is "good" is determined by our genetic coding.
2) Lying is, according to scientific research, apparently hardwired into our brains.
3) Lying is "never good" (perhaps those are Louis' words and not Harris').
Message edited by author 2011-10-13 22:26:47. |
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10/13/2011 10:26:06 PM · #234 |
If you have a Kindle, you can buy Harris's essay on Lying for 1.99 as a Kindle single. I just did, I'll read it on the upcoming trip. And, btw, Amazon has a free Kindle reader app you can download on the PC. So if you're interested in what Harris has to say, 2 bux is cheap enough...
R.
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10/13/2011 10:27:17 PM · #235 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
If you have a Kindle, you can buy Harris's essay on Lying for 1.99 as a Kindle single. I just did, I'll read it on the upcoming trip. And, btw, Amazon has a free Kindle reader app you can download on the PC. So if you're interested in what Harris has to say, 2 bux is cheap enough...
R. |
I edited my post above while this was being typed, but for $1.99, I'm in. I'll check it out. Never say I'm unwilling to hear the other side.
Message edited by author 2011-10-13 22:27:52. |
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10/13/2011 10:41:02 PM · #236 |
Originally posted by Louis:
(Frankly, I wish he'd start taking 1 Timothy 6:20 seriously. Stick to your knitting, as we say up here.) |
Personally I prefer I Thes. 5:21. :) |
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10/14/2011 12:13:35 AM · #237 |
You guys should have told me it was only 26 pages. Finished. Frankly, it's fairly innocuous and could have been written word-for-word by an evangelical pastor if he were so inclined. Unfortunately it doesn't address the question I found to be interesting, namely how would Harris' view on the etiology of morality inform him of these conclusions about lying?
He is also, unsurprisingly, in one way, the reverse form of a Creationist. The accusation levied against a Creationist is of being a philosopher who is pretending to be a scientist while Harris is a scientist trying to play at philosopher. It shows in his fairly elementary argument style. Lying is bad. Here is one form of lying. Here is an anecdotal story which shows how the lying, in this form, is bad. Case closed. I'm not seriously going to hold it against him since it's only 20-pages long, but neither am I going to consider his argument to be a serious attempt at the subject. Many people in his field have made much more scholarly attempts at showing the exact opposite; lying is necessary for society to function. |
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10/14/2011 12:49:03 AM · #238 |
I did say it was an "essay" Doc... As distinct from a "book"...
R.
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10/14/2011 01:18:10 AM · #239 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I did say it was an "essay" Doc... As distinct from a "book"...
R. |
Ya, I know. You turned me onto that. I assumed it was a book before like Harris' other...books. :) I wouldn't have asked for the Cliff's Notes otherwise. :) |
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10/14/2011 02:39:22 AM · #240 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The accusation levied against a Creationist is of being a philosopher who is pretending to be a scientist while Harris is a scientist trying to play at philosopher. |
I wouldn't call a Creationist a philosopher either, if that helps. In my opinion a philosopher is someone who thinks for themselves, not regurgitate what they are taught. I know this is in stark contrast to your belief that a philosopher is just another word for theologian. |
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10/14/2011 09:53:21 AM · #241 |
| A creationist is an ideologue, not a philosopher. It would be amusing to look on while the smartest people we have were routinely brought low and made to look ridiculous by what usually amounts to kindergarten tactics ("Sammy"? Really?) committed by the not-so-smart, if it weren't so depressing to understand the kind of arrogance required to fuel those nervous reactions. |
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10/14/2011 10:33:07 AM · #242 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The accusation levied against a Creationist is of being a philosopher who is pretending to be a scientist while Harris is a scientist trying to play at philosopher. |
I wouldn't call a Creationist a philosopher either, if that helps. In my opinion a philosopher is someone who thinks for themselves, not regurgitate what they are taught. I know this is in stark contrast to your belief that a philosopher is just another word for theologian. |
What does that make you? :P
The point was that a Creationist (in the strong sense of the word *) is trying to work within a system they typically don't understand. Harris is no different.
Sorry, Louis. I was just being honest with my opinion... I honestly view Harris as just as much an idealogue as, say Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell. I'll give him the credit, though, that he doesn't typically ask for donations on TV. I also honestly think you are being small not giving me credit for reading the essay you linked. I didn't say I disagreed with anything he wrote (in fact, I implied I agreed with it all). I just said I didn't think his ability to formulate an argument was very advanced (at least as presented) and that my original question wasn't answered in the essay. If you want to consider this "kindergarten tactics", I honestly don't know how to reply.
* I should just explicitly say I'm envisioning someone that is sitting in front of a Board of Education arguing that Creation is as good a "theory" as Evolution and should be taught right next to it. I'm not intending it, in this instance, to mean anybody who believes the universe was created by God.
Message edited by author 2011-10-14 10:43:04. |
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10/14/2011 11:31:00 AM · #243 |
And you hold this opinion, having read exactly one short essay having nothing to do with an ideologically-driven topic? And you would call someone an ideologue who opposes ideology?
I realize that the various threats to your faith come thick and fast and from all quarters these days, but maybe you can see how dismayed one is to see the work of a lifetime (any lifetime) chucked on the heap of discarded ideas without so much as an inkling of what those ideas are. Who are you, Bill O'Reilly?
Btw, the "kindergarten" stuff was based on the silly name-calling ("Sammy"? Again, really?) and putting the stuff of his work in quotes or italics or trailing ellipses, or what have you. I get that you have a grind with him because he's so lucidly threatening (I never even mentioned his name, mind you), but if you can't come up with better than that... well, to paraphrase the great Sam Harris, some people aren't really part of the important conversations, and their response can be, without guilt, met with silence. |
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10/14/2011 11:36:49 AM · #244 |
That's it. You two are now consigned as roommates. Don't even think about making me pregnant.
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10/14/2011 06:25:21 PM · #245 |
Originally posted by Louis:
And you hold this opinion, having read exactly one short essay having nothing to do with an ideologically-driven topic? And you would call someone an ideologue who opposes ideology?
I realize that the various threats to your faith come thick and fast and from all quarters these days, but maybe you can see how dismayed one is to see the work of a lifetime (any lifetime) chucked on the heap of discarded ideas without so much as an inkling of what those ideas are. Who are you, Bill O'Reilly?
Btw, the "kindergarten" stuff was based on the silly name-calling ("Sammy"? Again, really?) and putting the stuff of his work in quotes or italics or trailing ellipses, or what have you. I get that you have a grind with him because he's so lucidly threatening (I never even mentioned his name, mind you), but if you can't come up with better than that... well, to paraphrase the great Sam Harris, some people aren't really part of the important conversations, and their response can be, without guilt, met with silence. |
So noted. |
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10/15/2011 01:01:59 AM · #246 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...It means I'd accept that scripture actually intends the point that is being made. If you have 30 verses that support your position, I'm more satisfied than if you have one word. |
Ah but you see Doc, not all of us accept that the scriptures actually intends the point that is being made and in addition, one could argue that in a roomfull of Christians there could be a great deal of variation as to what each of these 30 verses actually say.
In any event, I do believe that we have straying somewhat from the initial intent of this thread.
Ray |
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10/15/2011 01:16:56 AM · #247 |
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
"Thank you for slapping me in my face with my hypocrisy. But, I wasn't found out, so... I'm gonna listen to some music now..." |
Or... Thanks for not giving a shit, I now know where you stand and I will deal with this alone and know better than to ask for your support again.,
Our differing views may not be reflective of reality as much as they are reflective of our own personal interpretations.
Ray |
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10/16/2011 11:56:06 AM · #248 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
"Thank you for slapping me in my face with my hypocrisy. But, I wasn't found out, so... I'm gonna listen to some music now..." |
Or... Thanks for not giving a shit, I now know where you stand and I will deal with this alone and know better than to ask for your support again.,
Our differing views may not be reflective of reality as much as they are reflective of our own personal interpretations.
Ray |
I'm surprised the expectations are so high here. At the ripe old age of 20, I'd be surprised that life has touched these young men enough to give them the inner strength to deal with such events with a mature level of compassion, discretion, and tact.
Growing up is hard, but growing up holistically takes a life time.
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10/16/2011 04:23:51 PM · #249 |
Originally posted by hihosilver:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
"Thank you for slapping me in my face with my hypocrisy. But, I wasn't found out, so... I'm gonna listen to some music now..." |
Or... Thanks for not giving a shit, I now know where you stand and I will deal with this alone and know better than to ask for your support again.,
Our differing views may not be reflective of reality as much as they are reflective of our own personal interpretations.
Ray |
I'm surprised the expectations are so high here. At the ripe old age of 20, I'd be surprised that life has touched these young men enough to give them the inner strength to deal with such events with a mature level of compassion, discretion, and tact.
Growing up is hard, but growing up holistically takes a life time. |
Just to clarify, the views I expressed were in response to those made by Ms. Too and had nothing to do with the expectations I may or may not have had regarding the two young men and their interactions.
Ray |
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10/16/2011 04:25:17 PM · #250 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Just to clarify, the views I expressed were in response to those made by Ms. Too and had nothing to do with the expectations I may or may not have had regarding the two young men and their interactions. |
Approach the bench! |
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