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09/29/2011 02:25:10 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by crowis:
Without the GEAR there is NO PHOTOGRAPHY. . .
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Without the photographer, there is no photography.
So? |
This is my point. I find the gear almost as important as the photographer. Yes, I agree that the photographer needs to know how to use the equipment he has. That is not a hidden fact in the world of photography. I just find it as a huge part in getting better photos.
If it wasn't the case, we would all be using low budget equipment and still get the high end quality that we get with our more expensive cameras.
Take a look at this page vs. this page.
As you can see the scores are higher on average with this camera.
I just feel as though the camera and its lenses are EXTREMELY important. |
One thing you might want to keep in mind is that people don't invest in a hobby they are doing poorly in, or have no gift for. Those folks who have some promising photos with cheaper equipment and notice it's failings (my long post below) will naturally add to and improve their arsenal. . .so, their is likely a lot of experience behind that high end camera. By the time I work up to the higher tech brackets (which might take a while) I hope that some of the barriers and knowlege issues I possess will long have been abandoned.
Message edited by author 2011-09-29 14:25:52.
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09/29/2011 02:30:31 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
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Take a look at this page vs. this page.
As you can see the scores are higher on average with this camera.
I just feel as though the camera and its lenses are EXTREMELY important. |
What's the cliché that goes with this? Chicken before the egg? Cause or Effect? There's some good cliché for it, but I'm blanking.
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09/29/2011 02:38:35 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
...
Take a look at this page vs. this page.
As you can see the scores are higher on average with this camera.
I just feel as though the camera and its lenses are EXTREMELY important. |
What's the cliché that goes with this? Chicken before the egg? Cause or Effect? There's some good cliché for it, but I'm blanking. |
To every chicken her egg, for every egg there is a hen. Translation: for every camera there is a cliche. |
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09/29/2011 02:40:02 PM · #29 |
To make my point about using tools, look at  IreneM.
Many of her winning shots were done with an entry level camera. This was done while she owns and could have used a D700. You can't tell the difference. The camera and lenses are tools, its us the photographer and what we can do with those tools that make the magic.
IreneM's highest rated photos is done with a D50.
Message edited by author 2011-09-29 14:41:10. |
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09/29/2011 02:43:11 PM · #30 |
I know quite a few terrible cooks who own top of the line Viking ranges. They either just love the way the hulking things look in their fancy kitchens, or are hoping that getting better gear will inspire them to become better.
That said most people who buy a $12,000 range care about the food they cook and are pretty good in the kitchen. Does the flame it produces make them a better cook? Probably, a little better, it certainly makes some techniques easier. Of course the legendary James Beard used to prefer to cook on an electric range, and I doubt anyone cooking on one of those top of the line Viking's could make better food.
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09/29/2011 03:11:51 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I know quite a few terrible cooks who own top of the line Viking ranges. They either just love the way the hulking things look in their fancy kitchens, or are hoping that getting better gear will inspire them to become better.
That said most people who buy a $12,000 range care about the food they cook and are pretty good in the kitchen. Does the flame it produces make them a better cook? Probably, a little better, it certainly makes some techniques easier. Of course the legendary James Beard used to prefer to cook on an electric range, and I doubt anyone cooking on one of those top of the line Viking's could make better food. |
I know of a woman in NYC who ordered a similar range. It was a dual-fuel model, meaning that it had an electric oven and a gas cooktop. The thing weighed about 800lb and would not go up the stairs in her old building so she the contractor had to remove a window and bring it in with a crane. When the installers went to put it in her kitchen, they noticed there was no gas hookup, infact, there was no gas in the whole building. When the contractor brought this up, the woman just told him, "I didn't buy it to cook on it." |
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09/29/2011 03:19:47 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by crowis:
One thing you might want to keep in mind is that people don't invest in a hobby they are doing poorly in, or have no gift for. |
Really? People do that sort of thing all the time. Rank beginners rush out and buy the exact same whatever gear is needed for whatever hobby they're going to try, use it once to find: a) they don't like it b) it's a lot harder than it looks on TV or the web. Then the gear sits in the closet until they decide to get rid of it or it fossilizes.
When I used to race bicycles, at least once a year during the training season, some guy would show up on a brand new, super high end bike, decked out in the latest brand new gear and after flailing on a few training rides, they'd disappear. We might see them a few months later with a bunch of expensive ski gear or a windsurfer or something...all pricey high end stuff.
My cousin just bought herself a 5DmkII and 4 or 5 L lenses...she's taking snaps of her family and their dog.
Message edited by author 2011-09-29 15:25:07. |
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09/29/2011 04:45:08 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
My cousin just bought herself a 5DmkII and 4 or 5 L lenses...she's taking snaps of her family and their dog. |
YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!! LOL.
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09/29/2011 04:48:27 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
When I used to race bicycles, at least once a year during the training season, some guy would show up on a brand new, super high end bike, decked out in the latest brand new gear and after flailing on a few training rides, they'd disappear. |
Why I don't race. I show up for a beginners ride and get dropped leaving the parking lot.
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09/29/2011 04:56:05 PM · #35 |
When faced with this statement...
"Your camera takes nice pictures"
a polite photographer should reply
"Your mouth gives good compliments." |
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09/29/2011 05:01:22 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Spork99:
When I used to race bicycles, at least once a year during the training season, some guy would show up on a brand new, super high end bike, decked out in the latest brand new gear and after flailing on a few training rides, they'd disappear. |
Why I don't race. I show up for a beginners ride and get dropped leaving the parking lot. |
You're riding with the wrong bunch then.
In this case, there were a wide variety of rides for all skill levels from the fastest A level riders to the recreational riders. These guys would show up for one of the club rides where everyone rides, but they usually break into groups according to speed and it seemed they thought it would be no problem to be able average 25mph on the flat or climb the mountains and keep up with the fastest riders. Then they'd get frustrated when they find themselves riding with the C and D level riders. I started riding seriously in 10th grade and by the time I graduated college, I was A/B material. |
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09/29/2011 05:05:08 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by crowis:
Originally posted by Spork99:
My cousin just bought herself a 5DmkII and 4 or 5 L lenses...she's taking snaps of her family and their dog. |
YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!! LOL. |
I seriously doubt she'll ever take it out of the auto mode.
Once she realizes what a PITA it is for what she wants to do with it, I'll take it off her hands. LOL |
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09/29/2011 06:26:03 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by crowis:
Originally posted by Spork99:
My cousin just bought herself a 5DmkII and 4 or 5 L lenses...she's taking snaps of her family and their dog. |
YOU ARE KILLING ME!!!! LOL. |
I seriously doubt she'll ever take it out of the auto mode.
Once she realizes what a PITA it is for what she wants to do with it, I'll take it off her hands. LOL |
lols, most cameras today, take better pictures in full auto then the user could ever do. |
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10/06/2011 02:35:30 PM · #39 |
I saw the FB post by "Nikon" and honestly saw it as poorly worded, but well meaning post perhaps intended to draw a little comment lol.
I felt sorry for the person who wrote it. Perhaps English is not his/her first language. Perhaps fired.
And yet predominantly non Nikon owners (and a few who are) tore into Nikon and the (unknown) writer as if it was the greatest travesty to photographers since the Box camera was replaced by an Instamatic 110 turf in the bin after 24 exp.
I am impressed by the measured and professional replies to the OP on THIS DPC thread.
There is hardly a tone of Nikon bashing. A hearty discussion with thoughtful whys/why not's, POV's with examples and experience.
My personal take? As one poster said, "Without the gear, there are no photographs" and naturally without the eyes and hands the gear is as useless. A symbiosis of sorts. No one can deny that a 400mm prime has better IQ than a 100-400mm zoom @ 400mm. (Or a 500mm vs a 150-500mm zoom) but I have taken BiF images with a slow 1994 75-300mm f/5-6.3 that the 500mm brigade missed completely. The practicality and flexibility of the 4/500mm prime is naturally a different kettle of kippers but in the correct, experienced and passionate hands any gear comes alive.
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10/06/2011 02:51:54 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I can't believe that it's been up all morning and there's not a heated discussion of it here yet. So I'll start it.
A photographer is only as good as the equipment he uses...
My opinion is that the 80/20 rules applies. 80% is the photographer, 20% is the equipment, but ONLY if the photographer has the knowledge and skill to take advantage of what capability the equipment offers. Of course, Nikon does not sell lenses by suggesting you improve your skills first. |
In my opinion, its more line 65% to 35%
I really do think that equipment does make a difference, but it does depend on the level you are shooting. A 50d and a Mark2 aren't going to have THAT different results, but either of those compared to an auto point and shoot will make a gigantic difference.
If you are shooting low light, sports, wildlife etc. I think equipment does make a difference.
That being said, that is mostly comparing photographers who know what they are doing with cheap cameras to photographers who know what they are doing with expensive cameras. Most photographers will be able to take nicer shots than the average Joe off the street who just picks up a camera for the first time in all auto. |
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10/06/2011 03:01:44 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
My opinion is that the 80/20 rules applies. 80% is the photographer, 20% is the equipment |
Originally posted by Fiora:
In my opinion, its more line 65% to 35% |
Arm wrestle you for that 15%?
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10/06/2011 07:16:54 PM · #42 |
Post processing is far more important than either the equipment you shoot with or the photographer, wouldn't you say? Forgetting whether or not you are bound by entry rules.
You also must have an Apple and at least a 36 inch monitor all loaded with the latest editing software and carefully calibrated before each session. And don't even think about having your printing done by a cut-rate printer. Don't forget to send the calibration instruction set or your prints will look like I did them.
Yep, photographer and camera/lens are such a small part of producing a quality photograph. Probably falls within the 80/20 rule, huh Spiff? |
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10/06/2011 07:40:28 PM · #43 |
[quote=David Ey] Post processing is far more important than either the equipment you shoot with or the photographer, wouldn't you say?
NO! NO! and, did I forget, NOOOOO!!!! You can't polish a turd. A crappy photo is a crappy photo and no amount of pp (take yer pic of pp programs) will make it look any better. See youarenotaphotographer.com, where fauxtogs are called out on their truly terrible shots, usually made to look even worse by too much pp in vain attempts to make it look better.
ETA: this is what I would call a 'baiting' post, peeps; designed to draw comments like mine above. |
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10/06/2011 07:45:45 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
ETA: this is what I would call a 'baiting' post, peeps; designed to draw comments like mine above. |
Um, well, it's actually very heavy sarcasm.
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10/06/2011 07:52:28 PM · #45 |
| Finally, someone understands me. :) |
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10/06/2011 07:55:05 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by snaffles:
ETA: this is what I would call a 'baiting' post, peeps; designed to draw comments like mine above. |
Um, well, it's actually very heavy sarcasm. |
Yeah, though maybe langdon should develop a *sarcasm on* *sarcasm off* tag, just for those poor noobs who stumble upon this thread! :-) |
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10/06/2011 09:38:30 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Post processing is far more important than either the equipment you shoot with or the photographer, wouldn't you say? Forgetting whether or not you are bound by entry rules.
ep, photographer and camera/lens are such a small part of producing a quality photograph. Probably falls within the 80/20 rule, huh Spiff? |
80% photographer / 20% Topaz. Yep.
Or is it the other way around...?
Message edited by author 2011-10-06 21:38:48.
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10/06/2011 09:45:22 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by crowis:
One thing you might want to keep in mind is that people don't invest in a hobby they are doing poorly in, or have no gift for. |
Really?
You obviously haven't compared my average score, with my equipment list... |
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10/07/2011 12:28:51 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by crowis:
Without the GEAR there is NO PHOTOGRAPHY. . .
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Without the photographer, there is no photography.
So? |
This is my point. I find the gear almost as important as the photographer. Yes, I agree that the photographer needs to know how to use the equipment he has. That is not a hidden fact in the world of photography. I just find it as a huge part in getting better photos.
If it wasn't the case, we would all be using low budget equipment and still get the high end quality that we get with our more expensive cameras.
Take a look at this page vs. this page.
As you can see the scores are higher on average with this camera.
I just feel as though the camera and its lenses are EXTREMELY important. |
+1
Unfortunatly, I know much more about shooting weapons than cameras(I am a sniper). Since learning about photography I have realized there is a remarkable similarity. (Post processing is a little cleaner with Photography ;-)
My point is, With the same scope (or lens, as you would call it) I can acheive a 2.25" spread between bullet holes at 500m with a stock Remington 700. That is better than the manufacturer states. Now with my Fabrique National, I can get the holes 1.5" apart. The factory states it is a sub-1/4MOA, which means it should be possible to acheive a 1.25 spread.
I take that as the FN rifle has the ability to shoot better than I do. However I can shoot the Remington better than it is supposed to. Having said that I am still better with the FN, but it is mostly the rifle...
Hope than analogy is not too far off.
Next time you take a picture, try compensating for distance, drop, windage, rotational drift, atmoshereic pressure, angle to the target, lead time, mil-dot to minute conversion, zoom focus, parrallax, and time til impact.
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10/07/2011 03:27:12 PM · #50 |
Regarding equipment vs ability...
What I know is that when I look at winners of sporting events (or the fotogs covering them), they have the latest and most advanced equipment available. Yes someone of greater ability and mediocre equipment can beat someone else with less ability and better equipment - BUT when all the players are professional grade they want the very best equipment they can find/afford.
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