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09/24/2011 02:13:10 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by JH:
The scariest quote I read from a lawmaker was "He didn't prove his innocence".... |
EXACTLY. That thinking is TERRIBLE. I have enough credits to graduate early in my high school, but I'm required to take a certain number of classes anyway to prevent senior-itis. Anyway, we're having this discussion in US History 2 about the mosque that's being build two blocks west of 9/11. I heard someone in a class discussion say "Well, you can't treat them differently, they haven't done anything wrong." Across the room someone said "It doesn't matter, they haven't proven their innocence." Basically saying that because of a minority of religious extremists in the world, he believes all muslims are now GUILTY before proven INNOCENT. o.O
WTF.
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09/24/2011 02:20:02 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Suppose the question were rephrased: where would you rather spend your tax dollars - educating our youth so that they have options other than those which may lead to the death penalty, or feeding/clothing/housing/caring-for-medically those who have already proven they don't give a damn about anyone else? |
The costs of putting a prisoner to death are currently greater than keeping them in prison for life. Now it could be argued that we just need to kill convicts faster, with less due process, and kill more of them. Perhaps we just ought to wade into the criminal class with a needle and kill them all. Perhaps their children too, since there is a high rate of criminality in family groups. It might work out to be a superior solution, as distinct from a final solution. It seems to work in China. There Falun Gong are killed and their organs harvested and their families are charged for the bullet the state put into their brains. Sure seems like it is a good cheap method of dealing with dissent.
As far as Jason's question of would you accept capital punishment if it could be proven to be a deterrent; it would certainly go a long way towards making state sponsored murder seem justified. The statistical correlation of capital punishment and high murder rates would have to reverse themselves, and that is not a tide I can see turning.
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09/24/2011 02:21:32 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by CrazyDiamond:
Barbarism and civilisation are not abstract concepts. They are terms applying to the state of society and it's historical advancement/regression. |
That doesn't mean anything until you explain what we are advancing toward and why we should advance toward it and who told us to do so. Different people have different answers. What are yours? |
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09/24/2011 02:24:09 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by CrazyDiamond:
Barbarism and civilisation are not abstract concepts. They are terms applying to the state of society and it's historical advancement/regression. |
That doesn't mean anything until you explain what we are advancing toward and why we should advance toward it and who told us to do so. Different people have different answers. What are yours? |
True. I don't want to discuss my political ideas because I know I will be attacked for them, but I do believe there is something to strive for and that society and technology can advance further under a different system. Apologies. If you want to PM I'd be happy to. |
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09/24/2011 03:08:32 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by CrazyDiamond:
Barbarism and civilisation are not abstract concepts. They are terms applying to the state of society and it's historical advancement/regression. |
That doesn't mean anything until you explain what we are advancing toward and why we should advance toward it and who told us to do so. Different people have different answers. What are yours? |
The following quote answers it pretty well for me:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
You are known by the company you keep
Countries that use the death penalty listed by the number of prisoners they killed last year.
China, Iran, North Korea, Yemen, USA, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Libya, Bangladesh, Somalia, and so on.
Not a club I am proud to be a member of. |
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09/24/2011 05:34:42 AM · #81 |
Crucifixion.. NAIL em up I say, Nail some sense into them. Best thing the Romans ever did for us. If we didn't have crucifixion this country would be in a right bloody state.
The main issue is to be 100% sure the person is guilty. If we know for sure, for example, a person deliberately and knowingly left 2 girls to starve to death rather than revealing the location he had hidden them then I would put him/her into the same situation and starve him/her to death.. no cost to the tax payer.
if we cannot be 100% the person is guilty then killing them is not the solution, there have been too many mistakes and they simply cannot be undone.
extreme hard labour is an option for minor offenders or traffic violations.
People found 100% guilty for messing with children, depending on the severity, should be submitted to a lifetime of extreme hard labour or guinea pigs for mad scientists to develop cures etc or simply boiled to death.
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09/24/2011 05:41:01 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Crucifixion.. NAIL em up I say, Nail some sense into them. Best thing the Romans ever did for us. If we didn't have crucifixion this country would be in a right bloody state.
The main issue is to be 100% sure the person is guilty. If we know for sure, for example, a person deliberately and knowingly left 2 girls to starve to death rather than revealing the location he had hidden them then I would put him/her into the same situation and starve him/her to death.. no cost to the tax payer.
if we cannot be 100% the person is guilty then killing them is not the solution, there have been too many mistakes and they simply cannot be undone.
extreme hard labour is an option for minor offenders or traffic violations.
People found 100% guilty for messing with children, depending on the severity, should be submitted to a lifetime of extreme hard labour or guinea pigs for mad scientists to develop cures etc or simply boiled to death. |
...I was just thinking how hilarious it would be if you accidentally posted this to one of the new Welcome threads. ;-) |
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09/24/2011 06:51:00 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
...I was just thinking how hilarious it would be if you accidentally posted this to one of the new Welcome threads. ;-) |
DAMN! I thought I had
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09/24/2011 06:53:52 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by MAK:
Crucifixion.. NAIL em up I say, Nail some sense into them. Best thing the Romans ever did for us. If we didn't have crucifixion this country would be in a right bloody state.
The main issue is to be 100% sure the person is guilty. If we know for sure, for example, a person deliberately and knowingly left 2 girls to starve to death rather than revealing the location he had hidden them then I would put him/her into the same situation and starve him/her to death.. no cost to the tax payer.
if we cannot be 100% the person is guilty then killing them is not the solution, there have been too many mistakes and they simply cannot be undone.
extreme hard labour is an option for minor offenders or traffic violations.
People found 100% guilty for messing with children, depending on the severity, should be submitted to a lifetime of extreme hard labour or guinea pigs for mad scientists to develop cures etc or simply boiled to death. |
You`re mellowing in your old age.. |
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09/24/2011 07:13:59 AM · #85 |
storm in a teacup
in a 100 years we all dead
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09/24/2011 08:09:19 AM · #86 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
why would you put someone to death if it were not for some sort of deterrence?
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Why would anyone want a human pet? put them in cages, feed them care for them, fear them.... get a dog or a cat. Dog will be grateful. Human animal would only stab you if they get a chance.
its more expensive to put someone to death than keep him in prison for life? Only reason for this is that cost off housing a death row inmate at around $5700 a day and system lets them linger for 20-30 years. a That $5700 is about a decade old number, so its higher now I would imagine. |
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09/24/2011 08:19:14 AM · #87 |
So after the execution, what about the family or children left behind? - They did nothing, and yet they will have this punishment hanging over them for the rest of their lives. For the executed person, it's all over - no more punishment; Their punishment only lasted for as long as they were on death row.
inb4 "what about the victim's family?'
This is an argument for life in prison without parole.
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09/24/2011 08:24:53 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by JH:
So after the execution, what about the family or children left behind? - They did nothing, and yet they will have this punishment hanging over them for the rest of their lives. For the executed person, it's all over - no more punishment; Their punishment only lasted for as long as they were on death row.
inb4 "what about the victim's family?'
This is an argument for life in prison without parole. |
What? are you suggesting that putting Dad( could be Mom) in a cage. And than every so often bring kids around to see him, like a trip to the Zoo is the reason to keep criminals alive? |
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09/24/2011 08:49:22 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I didn't read every post closely, but it strikes me that in this conversation the main (or only) argument against the death penalty is that it does not deter other crimes. If we put this aside for a moment and assumed that the death penalty does deter crime, would that change people's minds? Is it only on pragmatic grounds that the members of this discussion are against capital punishment? |
There is not only ONE reason why the death penalty is not a good idea, but one of the various reasons it doesn't work and should be scrapped. The fact that it does not deter is a strong reason- and one used by proponent of capital punishment, so it is pointed out to pre-refute that argument.
Perhaps the main bit of gold panned out of the river that is this thread is that as soon as you make an intellectual argument against the death penalty- people charge back with the visceral "he didn't give the victims that opportunity, etc. etc." and "I say we kill them all quickly thats the only reason it costs alot of money..."
...even to the extent we would execute innocent people as just collateral damage.
and this is why we don't critically think about such issues, cooler heads don't prevail. |
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09/24/2011 09:32:02 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I didn't read every post closely, but it strikes me that in this conversation the main (or only) argument against the death penalty is that it does not deter other crimes. If we put this aside for a moment and assumed that the death penalty does deter crime, would that change people's minds? Is it only on pragmatic grounds that the members of this discussion are against capital punishment? |
There is not only ONE reason why the death penalty is not a good idea, but one of the various reasons it doesn't work and should be scrapped. The fact that it does not deter is a strong reason- and one used by proponent of capital punishment, so it is pointed out to pre-refute that argument.
Perhaps the main bit of gold panned out of the river that is this thread is that as soon as you make an intellectual argument against the death penalty- people charge back with the visceral "he didn't give the victims that opportunity, etc. etc." and "I say we kill them all quickly thats the only reason it costs alot of money..."
...even to the extent we would execute innocent people as just collateral damage.
and this is why we don't critically think about such issues, cooler heads don't prevail. |
I know nether of us will change there mind about this subject. I understand that Anti-death is an Intellectuals way and I'm a dumb ass that would get rid of them.
Next time there is a discussion about some serious crime here on DPC, pay attention how many intellectuals are going to cry the good old question " Why...oh Why....cant we just all get along??????"
I was unfortunate to visit a maximum security prison (no, I was not an inmate) it put me in a depression for a couple months. Every cell block ( there are 10 cell blocks in that prison) has 5-8 inmates that have to be chained at all time because they are to dangerous to the guards and other inmates. They are taken out of the cell in chains and put into the cages to take showers ( water is controlled from the guard station) . I just hope none of this animals ever get out. Keeping them alive only makes that a possibility. Yes, I'm a dumb ass.... |
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09/24/2011 09:45:26 AM · #91 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Every cell block ( there are 10 cell blocks in that prison) has 5-8 inmates |
I mean this as a genuine question.
What if even one of those 50-80 inmates you saw was actually wrongfully convicted? Should we accept the collaternal damage?
All endevours of man are imperfect and the judicial system is no exception. However, the death penalty is the one punishment that can't be reversed.
Message edited by author 2011-09-24 10:12:31. |
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09/24/2011 10:14:04 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Basta:
Every cell block ( there are 10 cell blocks in that prison) has 5-8 inmates |
I mean this as a genuine question.
What if even one of those 50-80 inmates you saw was actually wrongfully convicted? Should we accept the collaternal damage?
All endevours of man are inperfect and the judicial system is no exception. However, the death penalty is the one punishment that can't be reversed. |
That is a good question...however, if you even glanced any off them, you would not ask this question... if they are acting this way in a maximum security prison do you think you would like to have a nice dinner & wine with any of them?
there is a reason they are in shackles....they did something to be treated this way.
Prison installed chain link fence between the floors in the openings, because "special inmates" were pushing the guards and passing "normal inmates" over the rail even in shackles while being taken out of the cell for cleaning or any other kind of maintenance.
when you enter a cell block, the first thing you would notice is smell. I asked the guard about it. He said that " special inmates" stuff there own feces into the ventilation system (in there own cell) so the guards would go in and clean. They do this for fun.
Imperfection of judicial system is obvious, and that is a problem in the need of correction.... |
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09/24/2011 11:36:47 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I didn't read every post closely, but it strikes me that in this conversation the main (or only) argument against the death penalty is that it does not deter other crimes. If we put this aside for a moment and assumed that the death penalty does deter crime, would that change people's minds? Is it only on pragmatic grounds that the members of this discussion are against capital punishment? |
There is not only ONE reason why the death penalty is not a good idea, but one of the various reasons it doesn't work and should be scrapped. The fact that it does not deter is a strong reason- and one used by proponent of capital punishment, so it is pointed out to pre-refute that argument.
Perhaps the main bit of gold panned out of the river that is this thread is that as soon as you make an intellectual argument against the death penalty- people charge back with the visceral "he didn't give the victims that opportunity, etc. etc." and "I say we kill them all quickly thats the only reason it costs alot of money..."
...even to the extent we would execute innocent people as just collateral damage.
and this is why we don't critically think about such issues, cooler heads don't prevail. |
I know nether of us will change there mind about this subject. I understand that Anti-death is an Intellectuals way and I'm a dumb ass that would get rid of them.
Next time there is a discussion about some serious crime here on DPC, pay attention how many intellectuals are going to cry the good old question " Why...oh Why....cant we just all get along??????"
I was unfortunate to visit a maximum security prison (no, I was not an inmate) it put me in a depression for a couple months. Every cell block ( there are 10 cell blocks in that prison) has 5-8 inmates that have to be chained at all time because they are to dangerous to the guards and other inmates. They are taken out of the cell in chains and put into the cages to take showers ( water is controlled from the guard station) . I just hope none of this animals ever get out. Keeping them alive only makes that a possibility. Yes, I'm a dumb ass.... |
Look, there is no right answer- I am just saying that it is a struggle on a point that is tough to intellectualize. (Even "religious" church going - God fearing folk- the same ones who claim to follow the ultimate forgiving pacifist, seem to be OK with the death penalty- of course they were OK with slavery as well, etc.) If a terrible crime happened to me or my family I would probably say hang the bastards- I would hope I could find the strength to do the right thing. |
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09/24/2011 11:36:56 AM · #94 |
In States w/capital punishment - a prospective juror, for an opinion against execution upon a conviction, would undoubtedly be disqualified by the court or via request of prosecutors. I think a decided infringement in those States of trial by a jury of peers, presumption of innocence, & other indiscretions, brought by the cruel law, such as disregard & omission of post trial evidence.
I vote against capital punishment & any brutality of the state. |
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09/24/2011 12:23:33 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Basta:
That is a good question...however, if you even glanced any off them, you would not ask this question... |
You seem to be judging all 50 - 80 on the actions of some (maybe even the majority). Even if all were behaving as you describe, it's not an indication that they deserve capital punishment nor does it confirm that they were all convicted justly. You were depressed by a visit to this environment can you say how you (or others) might act if you had to live within it?
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that a vast majority were probably convicted as they should have been and deserving of their punishment and I would likely decline any dinner and wine invitations. But that doesn't mean we should condemn the whole lot. There is still a chance that the judicial system, which is imperfect now and always will be, has wrongly incarcerated some of the inmates you witnessed (and some waiting on death row).
I understand and support that ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ is the standard of evidence for conviction. But is that good enough for execution? A wrongful incarceration can be reversed but dead is forever.
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09/24/2011 12:46:19 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
There is still a chance that the judicial system, which is imperfect now and always will be, has wrongly incarcerated some of the inmates you witnessed (and some waiting on death row).
I understand and support that ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ is the standard of evidence for conviction. But is that good enough for execution? A wrongful incarceration can be reversed but dead is forever. |
According to this report from the Innocence Project, seventeen death-row inmates have now been completely exonerated, out of some 273 total reversed convictions in which the Project has been involved.
It is better to risk saving a guilty person than to condemn an innocent one.
--Voltaire (1694 - 1778), Zadig |
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09/24/2011 02:11:40 PM · #97 |
I appreciate the motives of those that want to protect innocent people from improperly applied "justice." At some point it should be clear to all that some people cannot live in society. They are simply not wired to live within the boundaries that allow civil folks to thrive together. In my view, this all boils down to how we define various offenses. I do not support the death penalty for offenders that repeatedly steal candy from a corner store. However, I have no reservations about putting to death someone that is found in front of a judge on numerous occasions for murder, rape, or any other violent crime. If it seems like I am painting with a broad brush, I am. Folks that are repeatedly found in the court system obviously make poor choices about how they spend their time, who they associate with, and the activities they pursue.
It is a very small percentage of the general population that falls into the category of repeat offender. I would like to see a statistic of how many violent crime repeat offenders have been rehabilitated and have gone on to become productive members of civil society. There are far too many violent crime repeat offenders that receive state and federal funds to provide them with a higher quality of life than some folks that do follow the rules and play nice with others. I have no problem with the thinning of the heard to provide for the greater good. People that repeatedly commit violent crime should be treated in the same way they treat others. Swiftly and with extreme prejudice. |
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09/24/2011 02:15:55 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by Basta:
there is a reason they are in shackles....they did something to be treated this way.
Prison installed chain link fence between the floors in the openings, because "special inmates" were pushing the guards and passing "normal inmates" over the rail even in shackles while being taken out of the cell for cleaning or any other kind of maintenance.
when you enter a cell block, the first thing you would notice is smell. I asked the guard about it. He said that " special inmates" stuff there own feces into the ventilation system (in there own cell) so the guards would go in and clean. They do this for fun.
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Is this the same environment that has been described as a country club/ university earlier in the thread?
Originally posted by Spork99:
Free room and board, free hot meals, free health care, organized recreation...sounds more like a country club than a punishment. Of course, it's not really free, I mean, the rest of society pays a pretty penny so that child rapists can play ping pong, nap and get their aches and pains looked after. |
Or maybe it is both- Supermax are unremitting hellholes where no matter who goes in, by the time they get out they are animal killers without a shred of humanity, and plain old maximum security prisons are a club houses for criminals with ping pong and super fun times. Or maybe they can be both at the same time, depending on whether your rhetorical goal is to show that prisoners are not truly human, or that prison is too good for them and they should all be killed. |
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09/24/2011 05:38:56 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by Basta:
Originally posted by JH:
So after the execution, what about the family or children left behind? - They did nothing, and yet they will have this punishment hanging over them for the rest of their lives. For the executed person, it's all over - no more punishment; Their punishment only lasted for as long as they were on death row.
inb4 "what about the victim's family?'
This is an argument for life in prison without parole. |
What? are you suggesting that putting Dad( could be Mom) in a cage. And than every so often bring kids around to see him, like a trip to the Zoo is the reason to keep criminals alive? |
It's the lesser of two evils. At least keeping him 'in a cage' means his kids don't have to live with the trauma that he was executed. What kid could possibly get their head around that? - In a cage he'll be there in the background, and eventually fade in their memories. |
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09/24/2011 06:37:13 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by JH:
It's the lesser of two evils. At least keeping him 'in a cage' means his kids don't have to live with the trauma that he was executed. What kid could possibly get their head around that? - In a cage he'll be there in the background, and eventually fade in their memories. |
...and just how would that differ from the child of a soldier who perished in a theater of war, a father or mother who was killed in a car accident, a loved one suffering for years on end with a disease such as cancer?
Sorry my friend, but children, particularly young ones adapt quite well when confronted with the demise of a family member, and this situation is not all that different.
Ray |
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