Hoya nd filter x8 - DPChallenge Forums

08/19/2011 06:49:53 PM · #1

so i bought a nd filter as recommended to bring on my beach vacation next week. im still a little unsure how this affect my images. i mean i know what it will do, but in terms of long exposures what kind of lengths am i looking at possibly getting.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/19/2011 07:11:23 PM · #2

It depends on the light. I shot this in the fairly bright afternoon 71 secs @ f/22

at least three cars and a large canal boat past while it was exposed.
The slight blur on the water is a row boat that was just drifting very slowly.
if its is dusk you can shoot multiple minutes. The more wind the more blur on tress and flags etc.
I shot this during the day but wanted the f/2.8 since I liked the vignette so I put on the ND it was only a 30 sec shot.

But what is the "why" that you are using the ND for? Are you trying to remove people and cars?
Trying to blur and soften water or clouds? Its that why that will determine how you use it.

added: try it out at home, take a shot of a busy road during the day, keeping in mind no cars will show up.
Shoot a sunset or dusk shot with water if you can find it.

Message edited by author 2011-08-19 19:14:20.

scarbrd

Leica M10

08/19/2011 07:14:11 PM · #3

Specifically, it will effect your exposure by 3 stops. So, if without the filter you get a shutter speed reading of 1/30 at a given lens aperture, will need to set the shutter to 1/4 at the same aperture to get the same exposure with the filter.

Message edited by author 2011-08-19 19:14:55.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/19/2011 07:22:52 PM · #4

I used the semi random ISO system: set it to max ISO (3200 for me) try 5-15 sec shot change time until it is about good.
Double exposer time for ever 1/2 of ISO (1600, 800, 400, 200, 100 so five times double the exposure)
if it looked good at ISO 3200 10 sec should be same at ISO 100 320 seconds. (20, 40, 80, 160, 320 secs)

My question is how does this apply to F-stop? If I was at f/2.8 ISO 100 320sec
how do I change the shutter to shoot the same at f/9 ISO 100?
Is there a similar rule as "double shutter for 1/2 ISO" that applies to "shutter + F-stop"?

scarbrd

Leica M10

08/19/2011 07:35:04 PM · #5

Originally posted by amsterdamman:

F-Stops go 1.4, 2.0, 2.8, 4.0, 5.6, 8.0, 11, 16, 22, 32

Each increment is equal to a shutter speed double (or half, depending on the direction you're going.)

so, a shutter speed of 320 seconds at 2.8 is the same exposure as 640 seconds at 4.0, 1280 seconds at 5.6, and 2560 seconds at F8.

F9, is not a typical or standard F-Stop for exposure factoring purposes.

Message edited by author 2011-08-19 19:35:19.

08/19/2011 07:48:37 PM · #6

Originally posted by amsterdamman:

Altering any of the three building blocks of exposure, ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture effect the final image.

For instance in your example of f/2.8 ISO 100 1/320 sec if I bump my ISO to 200 that is a 1 stop change so if my camera is in aperture priority mode my shutter speed will compensate and drop to 1/160 sec to maintain the correct exposure.

The aperture settings are based on full stop numbers. F/9.0 is not a full stop so there would be 1/3 or 1/2 stop math involved. To make it easier to explain here I'll use f/8.0 for instance which is a full stop increment. There are lower ones, but starting at f/2.8 the next full stop value is f/4.0, then 5.6, 8.0, 11.0, 16.0, 22 etc. Changing between each one of those is one full stop. So if you change your example of above from f/2.8 to f/5.6 you are affecting the exposure by two stops and your shutter speed will get two stops slower to compensate.

They do work together so if you are in manual mode and you step down your lens three stops from f/2.8 to f/8.0 and then bump your ISO up three stops by going from say ISO 100 to ISO 800 your correct exposure will have the exact same shutter speed between the two shots since you balanced out the change in aperture the same amount of stops using the ISO. They can be used in any combination up or down.

So yes, doubling or halving shutter speed effects exposure by 1 stop either way.
Doubling or halving the ISO also effects the exposure by 1 stop either way
Standard Full stop aperture settings effect the exposure by 1 stop either way

Use one or any of them in combination, rinse and repeat. :)

Dave

I see David chimed in while I was also typing. :)

Message edited by author 2011-08-19 19:49:42.

08/19/2011 07:51:48 PM · #7

i'm looking to blur the ocean and clouds on sunset shots, i doubt i'll pull it out in bright daylight, i dont think i'll be taking too many shots during the harsh daylight. i plan to bring it out at night and morning for sunsets and boardwalk.

08/19/2011 07:55:18 PM · #8

damn do you guys remember all this or do you look it up each time?

:)

08/19/2011 07:59:36 PM · #9

Originally posted by mike_311:

Well, the thing is...

Sunrise and sunset shots normally have a much darker foreground compared to the sky so a Graduated ND filter would be better to hold back the light from the sky a few stops to allow the foreground to exposure longer and balance out shot. Depending on just how bright it was to begin with would determine if your shutter speed was long enough to get the effective smoothing of the clouds and water. If not one could always use the ND filter in conjunction with the ND Grad to both balance out the light and increase the exposure time.

Dave

08/19/2011 08:01:17 PM · #10

Originally posted by mike_311:

damn do you guys remember all this or do you look it up each time?

:)

LOL...I remember it...and I'm sure David does as well. It's really not that hard once you understand the fundamentals. Also, the standard f stop scale is only a handful of numbers so it's not really overbearing. LOL.

Dave

08/19/2011 08:26:34 PM · #11

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

Originally posted by mike_311:
i'm looking to blur the ocean and clouds on sunset shots, i doubt i'll pull it out in bright daylight, i dont think i'll be taking too many shots during the harsh daylight. i plan to bring it out at night and morning for sunsets and boardwalk.

Well, the thing is...

Sunrise and sunset shots normally have a much darker foreground compared to the sky so a Graduated ND filter would be better to hold back the light from the sky a few stops to allow the foreground to exposure longer and balance out shot. Depending on just how bright it was to begin with would determine if your shutter speed was long enough to get the effective smoothing of the clouds and water. If not one could always use the ND filter in conjunction with the ND Grad to both balance out the light and increase the exposure time.

Dave

well since i don't have a grad filter, i guess i could do an hdr or combine exposures post, one with a proper exposure of the sky and one of the water.

08/19/2011 09:47:31 PM · #12

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

Originally posted by mike_311:
i'm looking to blur the ocean and clouds on sunset shots, i doubt i'll pull it out in bright daylight, i dont think i'll be taking too many shots during the harsh daylight. i plan to bring it out at night and morning for sunsets and boardwalk.

Well, the thing is...

Sunrise and sunset shots normally have a much darker foreground compared to the sky so a Graduated ND filter would be better to hold back the light from the sky a few stops to allow the foreground to exposure longer and balance out shot. Depending on just how bright it was to begin with would determine if your shutter speed was long enough to get the effective smoothing of the clouds and water. If not one could always use the ND filter in conjunction with the ND Grad to both balance out the light and increase the exposure time.

Dave

well since i don't have a grad filter, i guess i could do an hdr or combine exposures post, one with a proper exposure of the sky and one of the water.

Absolutely...would definitely work well.

Dave

Message edited by author 2011-08-21 20:23:41.

08/19/2011 10:27:07 PM · #13

Thanks very much for those explanations, I knew the F-stop sequence was specific.
I keep wishing I had a graduated ND filter. I looked on B&H and saw lots of circular graduated, but it seems a frame and a slide filter would be best.
Do you have any recommendation for a frame set up? Specific company or model would be great to know.
I bought B+W's ND and polarized filters recently. Kinda expensive, but it makes changing them so much more exciting!
Thanks again for the great detailed info!

08/19/2011 10:40:58 PM · #14

Originally posted by amsterdamman:

I've seen some circular or screw on grads lately, but for the most part they are usually full coverage and ND filters rather than graduated.

The better quality filters can be very expensive. I know I spent a ton on all my multicoated extra quality filters. No sense getting a cheap one with single coating because you get what you pay for and you will see a difference in quality across the filter and lens flare if you go cheap. Not to mention the coating will wear off a lot easier on the cheap ones. It's one of those things that you go for quality and take care of them properly and they should last you.

As for the ND Grads, probably the two most common filter systems would be Lee and the Cokin Pro line. Some of the Cokin filters on the low end are the best quality and are really starter kits. The glass isn't always neutral on the low end stuff and you will see color shifts and color cast. Again, the more you spend the better the product. B+W has built a very good reputation for their filters, but I think they still have issues with cross threading at times based on their thread specs. In general if you are matching B+W products...as in stacking you will see less problems, but once you mix and match with other companies that's normally when you see stuck filters etc.

Back to ND Grads, I'm sure there are other vendors that makes decent ones, but If you can afford it I'd probably go with Lee, otherwise look into the PRO Cokin filter system, but I wouldn't go lower than that. I know Cokin has a line selector on their website that tells you the best system for lens types etc. Some of the wide and ultra wide lenses require larger holders to cover the entire field of view effectively.

ETA: Don't forget it's called a filter system because there is at least three elements to it. The adapter ring specific to your lens thread size, the filter holder that attached to said ring, and of course the actual filters. You may...and often have to order all three separately.

Dave

Message edited by author 2011-08-19 22:48:34.

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

08/26/2011 12:15:57 PM · #15

Thanks for the input Dave (and all), so would this be one of your recommended sets?:
//www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/746186-REG/LEE_Filters_SET_RESIN_STARTER2_Starter_2_Filter_Set.html
and for my 77mm's
//www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/87147-REG/LEE_Filters_WAR077_Adapter_Ring_77mm.html

Are Lee and Cokin PRO of similar quality? Leaning to the LEE system. Seems the Cokin kits are soft edged, where the Lee is hard edged. I am planning to use them first for landscapes since the very diffuse Dutch sun is at a low angle and usually with some thin cloud cover, so the ground light tends to be low, but the sky washed out. So I think the hard edge description seems better suited for my uses.
Thanks for all your input and explanations!

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

08/26/2011 12:30:53 PM · #16

Originally posted by amsterdamman:

Are Lee and Cokin PRO of similar quality? Leaning to the LEE system.

I have not used either system, but from what I recall of others' posted experiences, the Lee system is superior.
There are a very few situations where I can see a need for a graduated filter, specifically where there are conditions like motion or a hand-held-only situation where a single exposure is highly preferred. Where a multiple exposure approach is possible, IMO it is always preferable. It's a little more work in post, but you have infinite choice of where to apply the gradient, how wide the gradient should be, etc.

salmiakki

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

08/26/2011 01:03:06 PM · #17

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by amsterdamman:
Are Lee and Cokin PRO of similar quality? Leaning to the LEE system.

I have not used either system, but from what I recall of others' posted experiences, the Lee system is superior.

I had the Cokin and they were really not that great - horrible magenta colour cast. Upgraded to Lee which are much much better. However, Lee filters are quite often on backorder (which I noticed was also the case in the link in the earlier post). I had to wait several months to get mine (in the UK).