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 08/09/2011 06:13:23 PM · #26
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
........I also think that using plastic bullets against them is wrong. Is it so hard for you to understand that just by thinking that i am not automatically 'on their side' ?


I am sure it would be much easier to understand your position if you offered an alternative to plastic bullets.
 08/09/2011 06:13:35 PM · #27
Originally posted by paynekj:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Of course the UK doesn't allow citizens to defend themselves, so...


Not true anymore: //www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14248097


That guy got damn lucky bringing a knife to a machete fight...especially 3 on 1... I prefer to keep them at a distance.
 08/09/2011 06:14:18 PM · #28
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
........I also think that using plastic bullets against them is wrong. Is it so hard for you to understand that just by thinking that i am not automatically 'on their side' ?


I am sure it would be much easier to understand your position if you offered an alternative to plastic bullets.


Just let anarchy reign. Power to the mob.
 08/09/2011 06:16:11 PM · #29
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I'm attempting to keep out of this thread but it's hard. People advocating using plastic bullets against looted x-box carrying children as young as 13 or so makes me feel sick.

edited to add i'm expecting the usual lazy 'you're condoning' bullshit.


Because everyone knows 13 yo looters don't know right from wrong and fully expect their actions to have no consequences.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.
 08/09/2011 06:17:34 PM · #30
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I'm attempting to keep out of this thread but it's hard. People advocating using plastic bullets against looted x-box carrying children as young as 13 or so makes me feel sick.

edited to add i'm expecting the usual lazy 'you're condoning' bullshit.


Because everyone knows 13 yo looters don't know right from wrong and fully expect their actions to have no consequences.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


sooo...shoot them with real bullets?
 08/09/2011 06:21:28 PM · #31
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I'm attempting to keep out of this thread but it's hard. People advocating using plastic bullets against looted x-box carrying children as young as 13 or so makes me feel sick.

edited to add i'm expecting the usual lazy 'you're condoning' bullshit.


Because everyone knows 13 yo looters don't know right from wrong and fully expect their actions to have no consequences.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


sooo...shoot them with real bullets?


Or just have amedia blackout and pump this out on everychannel and into their blackberries ;)
 08/09/2011 06:24:33 PM · #32
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I'm attempting to keep out of this thread but it's hard. People advocating using plastic bullets against looted x-box carrying children as young as 13 or so makes me feel sick.

edited to add i'm expecting the usual lazy 'you're condoning' bullshit.


Because everyone knows 13 yo looters don't know right from wrong and fully expect their actions to have no consequences.


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


sooo...shoot them with real bullets?


Or just have amedia blackout and pump this out on everychannel and into their blackberries ;)


So, that is YOUR alternative to plastic bullets?
 08/09/2011 06:26:57 PM · #33
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


I remember being a teenager too. And I remember that if I did something wrong there would be consequences.
08/09/2011 06:32:15 PM · #34
There are 7 water cannons in NI - They could dispatch 4 of them to the major trouble areas in England now, and they'd arrive by the morning. That'd leave 3 for any marching season trouble up North.

London is my home city, and I hate seeing it destroyed by scum. Decent Londoners should be marching on the Commons for action - They shouldn't be held to ransom like this!

Message edited by author 2011-08-09 18:32:59.
 08/09/2011 06:35:45 PM · #35
Originally posted by senor_kasper:

Or just have amedia blackout and pump this out on everychannel and into their blackberries ;)


So, that is YOUR alternative to plastic bullets? [/quote]

You serious? I'm pretty sure that was a joke.

Anyway, 'an alternative to plastic bullets'? I'm sure there are many and i don't really think the police in this country want to resort to plastic bullets really. There is talk of water cannons of course, but i think that more organised police presence may get the situation under control. As to the long term? Who knows. But i'd say that just sweeping the underlying social problems under the carpet and just dismissing it all as mindless thuggery will not help much at all in the future.
 08/09/2011 06:37:32 PM · #36
Originally posted by Basta:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


I remember being a teenager too. And I remember that if I did something wrong there would be consequences.


That's good.
 08/09/2011 06:41:16 PM · #37
Where's the harm in trying? Maybe there's lots of stuff to broadcast.

On the other hand maybe it's time to wonder why the tinder was so dry.

08/09/2011 06:44:54 PM · #38
Originally posted by tnun:


On the other hand maybe it's time to wonder why the tinder was so dry.


Indeed. But trying to discuss or explore those reasons is tantamount to arson and looting itself at the moment in this country it seems. Mindless thuggery and criminality are the buzzwords of the day.

Message edited by author 2011-08-09 18:46:25.
 08/09/2011 06:45:25 PM · #39
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:

Or just have amedia blackout and pump this out on everychannel and into their blackberries ;)
So, that is YOUR alternative to plastic bullets?


You serious? I'm pretty sure that was a joke.

Anyway, 'an alternative to plastic bullets'? I'm sure there are many and i don't really think the police in this country want to resort to plastic bullets really. There is talk of water cannons of course, but i think that more organised police presence may get the situation under control. As to the long term? Who knows. But i'd say that just sweeping the underlying social problems under the carpet and just dismissing it all as mindless thuggery will not help much at all in the future.


I knew you were not being serious, but it was looking like you were evading the question, hence my subsequent question. Now it's clear why you did not answer the question directly in the first place, you don't have an alternative to offer.

ETA quote brackets

Message edited by author 2011-08-09 18:49:34.
 08/09/2011 06:48:06 PM · #40
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by Basta:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:


I'm not even sure what you mean by that. They may know right or wrong, they may be idiots, they may think they are caught up in Grand Theft Auto, they may, even, just be caught up in the moment and dragged along by peer pressure (i remember that feeling from being a teenager myself). I don't think shooting them with plastic bullets is right though.


I remember being a teenager too. And I remember that if I did something wrong there would be consequences.


That's good.


If that is good why are you "condoning Bullshit"? plastic bullets are more than fair reminder as to what should not be done... pie in the face just does not do the same effect.
 08/09/2011 06:50:01 PM · #41
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Now it's clear why you did not answer the question directly in the first place, you don't have an alternative to offer.


I don't have alternative to shooting them with plastic bullets? So that kind of implies that you see 'no alternative' to shooting them with plastic bullets. Do you honestly think that there is no other way to get this situation under control?
 08/09/2011 06:50:16 PM · #42
I don't think the riots are motivated by any form or sense of social justice. This isn't the targeted attacks against Tory HQ like we saw with the student riots. That had a clear focus, clear message and a degree of legitimacy about it. This is disjointed, opportunistic and only has post-hoc rationalisation of social deprivation as a pseudo-excuse to rob.

I was told to leave work early today so the building could be secured, my journey took me through Handsworth and the streets were unusually busy - young people out in small groups excitedly chatting on phones; nothing ominous there but a palpable sense of excitement. Much of this rioting is being done as entertainment, by a generation where significant sections of the population expect everything they want without challenge, by right.

I was fortunate enough to catch a speech a while ago by Malcolm Maclaren a few months before he died. He was critical of today's karaoke culture and asked the audience 'When did it become cool to be stupid?'. I think that's a fair summary of where we are. Aspirations of many are self-centred but without the work-ethic to deliver; people who are every bit as selfish as the worst of the cynical financial profiteers but without even the decency to make a concerted effort to achieve their selfish aims. To cast them as a struggling put-upon underclass is to miss that if you were to give them a lottery win, not a penny would find it's way back into their community; they would merely gratify their materialistic yearnings by moving somewhere with a long drive. No different in their attitude to social responsibility to the hedge fund manager making millions on the back of ruinous activities masquerading as 'wealth creation'.

There's little true disenfranchisement here, just frustration about their perceived mismatch between what the world 'owes' them and what they have. And 13 is plenty old enough to have developed that mindset.
 08/09/2011 06:53:01 PM · #43
Originally posted by Basta:

If that is good why are you "condoning Bullshit"?


Sorry, Basta. I can't quite understand what you are saying really. Probably my fault. It's late etc
 08/09/2011 06:54:53 PM · #44
I love it how in this article one of three reasons for the riots is " this summers unusual heat"

//news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/iconic-image-london-riots-190313631.html
 08/09/2011 06:56:14 PM · #45
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Now it's clear why you did not answer the question directly in the first place, you don't have an alternative to offer.


I don't have alternative to shooting them with plastic bullets? So that kind of implies that you see 'no alternative' to shooting them with plastic bullets. Do you honestly think that there is no other way to get this situation under control?


No, it does not imply that. I personally see a few alternatives but all of them involve violence of some kind (plastic bullets, water cannons, tear gas, etc). It is you who questioned plastic bullets as a valid method of controlling the situation, so, I was curious to know what kind of alternative you would propose. I still don't see a clear answer.
 08/09/2011 07:01:58 PM · #46
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I don't think the riots are motivated by any form or sense of social justice. This isn't the targeted attacks against Tory HQ like we saw with the student riots. That had a clear focus, clear message and a degree of legitimacy about it. This is disjointed, opportunistic and only has post-hoc rationalisation of social deprivation as a pseudo-excuse to rob.

I was told to leave work early today so the building could be secured, my journey took me through Handsworth and the streets were unusually busy - young people out in small groups excitedly chatting on phones; nothing ominous there but a palpable sense of excitement. Much of this rioting is being done as entertainment, by a generation where significant sections of the population expect everything they want without challenge, by right.

I was fortunate enough to catch a speech a while ago by Malcolm Maclaren a few months before he died. He was critical of today's karaoke culture and asked the audience 'When did it become cool to be stupid?'. I think that's a fair summary of where we are. Aspirations of many are self-centred but without the work-ethic to deliver; people who are every bit as selfish as the worst of the cynical financial profiteers but without even the decency to make a concerted effort to achieve their selfish aims. To cast them as a struggling put-upon underclass is to miss that if you were to give them a lottery win, not a penny would find it's way back into their community; they would merely gratify their materialistic yearnings by moving somewhere with a long drive. No different in their attitude to social responsibility to the hedge fund manager making millions on the back of ruinous activities masquerading as 'wealth creation'.

There's little true disenfranchisement here, just frustration about their perceived mismatch between what the world 'owes' them and what they have. And 13 is plenty old enough to have developed that mindset.


Cheers for that Paul. I get what you are saying, and agree with much of it but i do think that there is a level of disenfranchisement at the heart of much of this. It is, as you say, oppotunistic and in no way political or focused and driven by a crazy almost nihilistic thrill seeking which is horrible. But- there are hugely deprived areas in the country and i think that ignoring that is detrimental to understanding what is happening.
 08/09/2011 07:08:36 PM · #47
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I'm attempting to keep out of this thread but it's hard. People advocating using plastic bullets against looted x-box carrying children as young as 13 or so makes me feel sick.

edited to add i'm expecting the usual lazy 'you're condoning' bullshit.


Xbox carrying 13 year olds? pfffft..

Try telling that to those people who have lost businesses and homes for no reason other than pure thuggery. Regardless of what you are reading in the press, these are grown men AND women (not to mention those innocent little kiddies with their cute nicked xboxes)... The twats are on TV saying that they are `protesting against poverty` and such... Nonsense - its incredible how they can `protest poverty` whilst organising their looting sprees in their £100 trainers and on their £300 smart phones.

If it was YOUR home they was ransacking or your business they was torching then I am sure you would feel a lot differently.

Look, I know you don`t particularly like me, but really I dont give a fuck to be honest - you are not the one who had to watch smoke billowing above the Essex/Hertfordshire skyline today from a warehouse torched by mindless idiots - with that smoke I see jobs burning, home and lives.. Plastic Bullets and Water Cannon? Yeah, sure, but lets remove the words "Plastic" and "Water" - then we are getting somewhere.


Too fucking right. You want to go destroy that which doesn't belong to you? For no reason? At best a small personal gain? I don't care how old you are, or what you're nicking or destroying - that mindset is something that isn't needed, people like this aren't wanted, they're not needed, they're not productive, they're not good... Yeah, upon that analysis, how can you not advocate just removing the problem? Do you really think these people are going to be good honest productive citizens next year?
 08/09/2011 07:10:34 PM · #48
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Now it's clear why you did not answer the question directly in the first place, you don't have an alternative to offer.


I don't have alternative to shooting them with plastic bullets? So that kind of implies that you see 'no alternative' to shooting them with plastic bullets. Do you honestly think that there is no other way to get this situation under control?


Sure, use lead...
 08/09/2011 07:11:36 PM · #49
We live in West London and my son has just come home from playing football. After his game he met a number of friends/acquaintances/old school mates who were determined to create some mayhem and get some of the riot action that's going on. The ringleader, who my son remembers as being one of the dumbest people in his school, insisted that they had superior numbers on their side and should attack the police and local shops and anybody who didn't join in the plan would be 'punched out' My son didn't join the group which is just as well as they were all arrested 400 yards and 3 smashed windows later.

The area we live in is not particularly wealthy or particularly deprived. I know some of the kids involved and they are not what you might call disadvantaged. To me they are a mix of greedy, silly, bored, impressionable, normally powerless, somewhat disenfranchised, and testosterone-laden. Add to this a number of external factors (well documented in the news reports) and I think you get the London riots in microcosm. Should the authorities use rubber bullets/water cannon whatever to stop the violence and destruction? Maybe. it's important to protect the lives and property of citizens but I think those same authorities should look at the external and social factors that trigger these events - some of them are common to every riot I can remember.

Just because protest behaviour is self-destructive, mindless, thuggish, greedy doesn't mean that there aren't underlying issues.
 08/09/2011 07:16:30 PM · #50
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:
We live in West London and my son has just come home from playing football. After his game he met a number of friends/acquaintances/old school mates who were determined to create some mayhem and get some of the riot action that's going on. The ringleader, who my son remembers as being one of the dumbest people in his school, insisted that they had superior numbers on their side and should attack the police and local shops and anybody who didn't join in the plan would be 'punched out' My son didn't join the group which is just as well as they were all arrested 400 yards and 3 smashed windows later.

The area we live in is not particularly wealthy or particularly deprived. I know some of the kids involved and they are not what you might call disadvantaged. To me they are a mix of greedy, silly, bored, impressionable, normally powerless, somewhat disenfranchised, and testosterone-laden. Add to this a number of external factors (well documented in the news reports) and I think you get the London riots in microcosm. Should the authorities use rubber bullets/water cannon whatever to stop the violence and destruction? Maybe. it's important to protect the lives and property of citizens but I think those same authorities should look at the external and social factors that trigger these events - some of them are common to every riot I can remember.

Just because protest behaviour is self-destructive, mindless, thuggish, greedy doesn't mean that there aren't underlying issues.


And just because there are underlying issues doesn't mean that anyone should have to put up with their behavior.

Let me ask you this- if these kids were doing this, say.... 4000 years ago, in a tribal system, running around lighting huts on fire, smashing pots, killing livestock and burning seed stocks along with the crops - what do you think the tribe would have done with them? My suspicion is that they would have been either driven out of the area entirely, or killed on the spot - probably the latter. I think our modern system lacks something in effectiveness that was present in earlier times. More civil, sure... But that does lead to an unfortunately large group of.. what do you call them? Yobs? Why not just call them criminals? That's what they are after all... Mindless antisocial criminals.
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