Can we just default on congress instead?

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

07/14/2011 02:26:44 PM · #51

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
All corporate money eventually becomes individual money (unless it is unutilized or spent in the course of business).

BS. Net profits are what's left AFTER the individuals are paid. The real reason Apple has such a huge stockpile of cash is that most of it is earned and held overseas. By keeping it there, they dodge the taxes that would otherwise be due.

But, again, what is the money benefitting anybody if it is just a huge stockpile of cash? You can't translate that cash into anything of individual use without facing taxes of some type. Am I not right? My point is there is no means of turning corporate profit into food, shelter, clothing, cars, entertainment, college tuition, or the like for an individual without it becoming individual income (unless there are business loopholes to declare them as expenses and I would be all for closing those).

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 14:27:09.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/14/2011 03:25:55 PM · #52

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But, again, what is the money benefitting anybody if it is just a huge stockpile of cash?

The shareholders? That does earn interest right?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You can't translate that cash into anything of individual use without facing taxes of some type. Am I not right?

Except executives have far more options when it comes to reducing their individual tax burden than their employees. An executive can pay himself in a number of ways (ex. salary, dividends, loans, etc), which can lower how much he or she has to pay personally. An employee rarely has that option. Also, the executive has the financial resources to hire the best accountants, lawyers and lobbyists to pinpoint or create all of the relevant loopholes needed to reduce the tax burden even further. For example:

Deferred Compensation

Avoiding AMT.

As already mentioned many companies aren't paying any taxes at all so it's not like this money has even been taxed.

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 15:27:34.

blindjustice

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/14/2011 03:43:31 PM · #53

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
All corporate money eventually becomes individual money (unless it is unutilized or spent in the course of business).

BS. Net profits are what's left AFTER the individuals are paid. The real reason Apple has such a huge stockpile of cash is that most of it is earned and held overseas. By keeping it there, they dodge the taxes that would otherwise be due.

But, again, what is the money benefitting anybody if it is just a huge stockpile of cash? You can't translate that cash into anything of individual use without facing taxes of some type. Am I not right? My point is there is no means of turning corporate profit into food, shelter, clothing, cars, entertainment, college tuition, or the like for an individual without it becoming individual income (unless there are business loopholes to declare them as expenses and I would be all for closing those).

The problem is that CEO's are on the boards of other companies and when they fail at one Corporate position, or get bored, they just get a big compensation buy out and move to another company- that would be ok; but there is no longterm accountability- and CEo's used to make 20 to 30 x the average worker, now its 300 times the average worker- all in the last 30 years.- and, all while moving the jobs oversees to maximize profit and a bonus, at the expense of the American worker- and there is no accountability, even to shareholders, as very few know their stocks anymore- were all part of some fund.

Truth is they have us by the proverbial short-ones, and they are shifting the wealth up, and bitching about taxes being too high in the process- and diverting your attention to the "awful government!" Ha- record profits, awfully good for business is more like it.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/14/2011 04:07:22 PM · #54

What does it say about our cultural values when the highest value is placed, not on teaching our children, caring for the sick or infirm, growing our food, building our houses, or protecting us from fire, crime or other enemies, but on being the most adept at guessing when to transfer money from one account/asset to another in order to profit by the transaction?

Until we place a higher value on making stuff (or a difference) than on making money we will continue our backwards slide down the slippery slope towards feudalism and corporate oligarchy.

Remind me, who was it Jesus threw out of the Temple ...?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/14/2011 04:11:06 PM · #55

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Remind me, who was it Jesus threw out of the Temple ...?

Wouldn't it be sweet to walk up to the Goldman Sach's CEO with a, "Don't make me go all Jesus on your ass..."? :D

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/14/2011 04:58:01 PM · #56

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me, who was it Jesus threw out of the Temple ...?

Wouldn't it be sweet to walk up to the Goldman Sach's CEO with a, "Don't make me go all Jesus on your ass..."? :D

Well ... isn't free-market capitalism a fundamentally (sic) anti-Christian economic system, having as its underlying motivation one of the seven sins ...?

Please, feel free to motivate and mobilize the community of believers to demand an end to the unlimited acquision of personal wealth ... perhaps point out that where the neo-robber barons are likely to end up, their pretty stacks of gold will soon melt ...

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

07/14/2011 06:47:31 PM · #57

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

But, again, what is the money benefitting anybody if it is just a huge stockpile of cash? You can't translate that cash into anything of individual use without facing taxes of some type.

It's an asset. It also removes money from the economy and reduces revenue available to the government. Even if government spending never changed (an impossibility given inflation), we would have to borrow to make up for that revenue lost over time.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My point is there is no means of turning corporate profit into food, shelter, clothing, cars, entertainment, college tuition, or the like for an individual without it becoming individual income (unless there are business loopholes to declare them as expenses and I would be all for closing those).

Sure there is. You can trade for other companies, offer yourself a company car or jet, convert it to a foreign currency, hire lobbyists, take compensation in the form of stock options and vacation time, etc. The top earners have an enormous range of mechanisms for avoiding taxes.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

07/14/2011 07:25:59 PM · #58

Originally posted by scalvert:

The top earners have an enormous range of mechanisms for avoiding taxes.

Don't forget all the cattle who mindlessly march into the slaughterhouses every election cycle giving these execs even more ways to screw everyone over. But hey, at least Steve Jobs allows us to buy his iStuff. That's gotta count for somethin'.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/14/2011 07:32:34 PM · #59

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me, who was it Jesus threw out of the Temple ...?

Wouldn't it be sweet to walk up to the Goldman Sach's CEO with a, "Don't make me go all Jesus on your ass..."? :D

Well ... isn't free-market capitalism a fundamentally (sic) anti-Christian economic system, having as its underlying motivation one of the seven sins ...?

Please, feel free to motivate and mobilize the community of believers to demand an end to the unlimited acquision of personal wealth ... perhaps point out that where the neo-robber barons are likely to end up, their pretty stacks of gold will soon melt ...

Such a voice exists in the Christian world. It's probably quiet, but getting louder. I read and discussed a book a few months back with a small group called "Radical: Taking back your faith from the American Dream". Interesting stuff. This is an area where you and I probably agree quite a bit more than we disagree.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

07/14/2011 07:37:02 PM · #60

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
Remind me, who was it Jesus threw out of the Temple ...?

Wouldn't it be sweet to walk up to the Goldman Sach's CEO with a, "Don't make me go all Jesus on your ass..."? :D

Well ... isn't free-market capitalism a fundamentally (sic) anti-Christian economic system, having as its underlying motivation one of the seven sins ...?

Please, feel free to motivate and mobilize the community of believers to demand an end to the unlimited acquision of personal wealth ... perhaps point out that where the neo-robber barons are likely to end up, their pretty stacks of gold will soon melt ...

Such a voice exists in the Christian world. It's probably quiet, but getting louder. I read and discussed a book a few months back with a small group called "Radical: Taking back your faith from the American Dream". Interesting stuff. This is an area where you and I probably agree quite a bit more than we disagree.

Yeah, I think when you talk politics, you seem to be a bit left leaning. I could be wrong though.

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

07/14/2011 07:40:28 PM · #61

Originally posted by scalvert:

We don't need to belabor this because you and I really agree, but some of your examples seem wrong. You can't avoid taxes by converting money to foreign currency. That would be a loophole EVERYBODY would take advantage of. Hiring a lobbyist is a business expense and, I begrudgingly suppose, a legitimate one (plus the lobbyist now pays tax on that money). Stock options have been mentioned and are subject to capital gains (which should be taxed at a higher rate). Vacation time? How do we go from stockpile of corporate cash to vacation time?

Again, I'm for closing loopholes so the top earners can't avoid taxes, I just bristled a bit at the example of Exxon paying zero corporate tax. It seemed like rhetoric when better, more truly reflective examples could be had. The Buffett example also seemed off. Were you saying that the average of all Berkshire employees was paying 32% tax? How could this even be? There must be lots of janitors and entry level employees paying very little (or even zero) tax. Are there an equal number of employees paying more than 32% to offset this? And if these people are higher income earners, why aren't they taking advantage of the same loopholes Buffett is? Go to your 1040 and do the very simple calculation of your tax paid divided by your AGI. Without knowing anything about you or your finances, I'd be highly surprised if that number is greater than 20%.

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 19:44:57.

David Ey

Nikon D80

07/14/2011 07:56:50 PM · #62

Originally posted by GeneralE:

You might be interested in THIS , or maybe not.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

07/14/2011 10:21:55 PM · #63

I pay about 28% all told. No loopholes that I know of, though I did just buy a house, so that should help a little bit! And oddly, I don't mind paying 28%. I like doing my part to support my country. I'd like those who spend it to be as careful about it as I am when I spend my share, though. I do splurge now and then, but no Cadillac (a VW) and I never was one for fancy clothes.... :-)

07/14/2011 10:51:28 PM · #64

Too many posts to read....

But GO'bama!!! The more he he shows his left leaning spineless self, the better it is for the Canadian Dollar.

I can't believe that he can't figure out a way to sort this shiznit out. Great leader!!! Wow....

Anyways, to all the people that say the default will resonate across the world. Yup you are correct. I am glad to be in Canada where a true Conservative government is in charge.

We may not be immune to the USA, but wow, just wow.

Maybe GM or Chrysler will bail you guys out.....

Start the flaming...

blindjustice

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

07/14/2011 11:03:51 PM · #65

Originally posted by glockguy:

Canadians are supposed to be a bit more polite, no?

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/14/2011 11:06:19 PM · #66

Originally posted by blindjustice:

Canadians are supposed to be a bit more polite, no?

After the Canucks lost in the Stanley Cup their PR agency decided to go in a different direction with the polite and nice thing. But only in Canada will you get this sort of brilliant response to a riot

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 23:07:55.

07/14/2011 11:06:29 PM · #67

Did I swear? Canadians can't have an opinion?

07/14/2011 11:10:32 PM · #68

Originally posted by glockguy:

Did I swear? Canadians can't have an opinion?

I cheered for Boston. Even held a Bruins party. Don't bring hocky into this. The Canucks are NOT Canada's Team.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

07/14/2011 11:12:28 PM · #69

Sorry guys. Trying to reply on a phone is tough. Mis quoted the last one. You get my point though.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

07/14/2011 11:17:46 PM · #70

It's just a level of bile and simmering hatred that we don't associate with our neighbors to the north.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/14/2011 11:21:27 PM · #71

I am not following. Are you saying that you have an ongoing hatred with us Canucks? (Not the hockey team)

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

07/14/2011 11:25:25 PM · #72

Originally posted by glockguy:

I am not following. Are you saying that you have an ongoing hatred with us Canucks? (Not the hockey team)

No, Brennan's saying YOU are showing a level of "bile" and "simmering hatred" that he doesn't normally associate with "our neighbors to the north", who mostly seem to be a level-headed and likable bunch.

R.

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 23:26:05.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

07/14/2011 11:39:19 PM · #73

Sorry. My bad. I guess what I am saying is " how is it possible that the USA can keep the entire world's economy at abay?". I apologize in advance, as a conservative, for believing the election of Obama was the worst thing the free world has seen in many years. That's saying a lot, because the "Bush era" was even worse.

I just can't believe that out of 300 miilion plus people trying to decide the "leader of the Free World. That's the best you (Americans) could come up with.

Seriosuly. Now, 'Bama can't even sort out a way to avoid a default.

Amazing

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

07/14/2011 11:44:26 PM · #74

Originally posted by glockguy:

Seriosuly. Now, 'Bama can't even sort out a way to avoid a default.

Amazing

Unfortunately, the president doesn't have that kind of power. He needs the cooperation of the legislative branch, and he doesn't have it. Don't blame this mess on Obama. Blame it on self-serving politicians who are looking no further to the future than the next election cycle. It's sickening, but it's not Obama's fault.

R.

Message edited by author 2011-07-14 23:44:36.