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05/05/2011 10:15:10 AM · #1 |
I am really frustrated with Adobe at the moment.
I've been a user of Adobe products since the mid-90s. Photoshop, Illustrator, PageMaker, InDesign. Now I mostly just use Photoshop.
When they started packaging the products together I bought the CS2 Creative Suite. My usual pattern is to upgrade over other version, so now I have CS4. Again, for the last several years, I only use Photoshop. The reason I upgraded the entire suite was that Adobe does not allow you to upgrade individual products within the suite. You can only upgrade the entire suite. (this is when I started to sour on Adobe). Since the upgrade to CS4 was less expensive than a new full version of Photoshop, I upgraded to CS4.
Fast forward a couple of years. Now I am still pretty happy with CS4, in keeping with my usual upgrade pattern, I did not upgrade to CS5 or the recently released CS5.5 ($650).
Now, here's the problem. I recently bought a new camera, the Olympus E-PL2. ACR 6.3 (Adobe Camera Raw) does not support the E-PL2. Adobe recently released ACR 6.4 with support for the E-PL2 and other new cameras. ACR 6.4 only works on CS5 or CS5.5, not CS4.
So, in order to use the RAW files on my new camera, I have to spend $650 on an upgrade I don't really want. The camera and lens cost $550.
The punch line - the only difference between the RAW files on the E-PL1 (which is supported in ACR 6.3) and the RAW files on the E-PL2 is the camera model text in the EXIF metadata. I proved this out by changing the EXIF data in the RAW file to show E-PL1 as the model and the RAW file opened just fine in CS4. The unmodified file gets "unsupported file format" error.
Obviously Adobe could support ACR 6.4 in CS4, but they are choosing not to. Most software vendors support 2 versions prior to the current version. Technically, I am still just one version behind the current offering.
Add to this the marketing folks decided to take a page out of the Microsoft playbook and offer Standard, Pro, Print, Web, Premium, Extended flavors to all their products and packages just to make it more confusing to the customer, has got me to the point of chunking the whole thing out the window.
Sorry for the long rant,
What I'd like to know is there any serious photo editing offering that can compare with Photoshop? I tried GIMP a few years ago, but it wasn't quite up to speed. Any serious GIMP power users out there?
I use a Mac and would like a product that takes plug-ins from 3rd party vendors like Photomatix, Neat Image, etc.
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05/05/2011 10:27:04 AM · #2 |
Boy, I hear you on some of your issues... I *really* don't like all the version mania. I do think that we really have the camera manufacturers to blame for the RAW file craziness, but Adobe has sure found a way to make money off of it as well. They *immediately* dump support for new cameras in the "old" version of ACR, not even a grace period. To Adobe's credit, though, they do update ACR pretty quickly to support new equipment. They have so many cameras to support, it's not surprising that they don't officially support your new cam, even though the RAW files appear to be the same. They simply don't update the old version, period.
Even though they can be frustrating, I still think that they treat their customers pretty well. My experiences with Adobe Customer Service have been almost 100% positive, and that's not something I can say about many organizations!
FWIW, a less-expensive option is to leave your CS4 as-is, and move to Lightrooom for RAW processing. Upgrading Lr is far less expensive than upgrading CS, and it provides a lot of nice features for organization. I wouldn't live without it.
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05/05/2011 10:29:59 AM · #3 |
I'm not saying I'm against dumping Adobe but here are some workarounds that don't dump Adobe â€Â¦
Any chance you wanna take a class at a community college and then use the educator discount?
A class could be 90$ and save you 80% on the products.
Another idea:
Lightroom.
Will allow editing and then opening in PS CS4
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05/05/2011 10:30:53 AM · #4 |
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Message edited by author 2011-05-05 10:31:51. |
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05/05/2011 10:31:25 AM · #5 |
Just noticed  kirbic beat me to it =)
I was using Lightroom 2 and CS3 Photoshop for a while. No problems that I recall with a workflow like that -
With an education discount, now though all my stuff is pretty up to date.
I hope Adobe doesn't go the same direction as some of our governments are - and take away stuff for educators ;)
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 10:36:05. |
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05/05/2011 10:32:25 AM · #6 |
I suspect somewhere on the WWW is a program that will change your exif information so that the
converter will accept your cameras files. You'd just have to keep two versions of any image
you wanted to enter on this site. I haven't searched for such, but I remember a camera I had
about 4 years ago where I had the same problem and found a small program that could edit exif
in raw files. You could also use the raw converter that came with the camera and then edit that
in photoshop. |
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05/05/2011 10:40:08 AM · #7 |
Aperture 3.1.2 with Mac OSX 10.6.7 Snow Leopard and at least 4GB of RAM. Aperture at $79.99 (via the App Store) is a true value, but as you may know, the equipment and operating system upgrade costs will not be insignificant, unless you are already there. And, around the corner looms Mac OSX 10.7 Lion, as early as June 6.
All the NikSoftware products are available as plugins for Aperture. Topaz Suite, Photomatix and PTLens, too. (These are the ones I use.)
For convenience of resizing, USM filter and printing, I do use PSElements. Occasionally I'll need to use layers. I enjoy using Pixelmator for the PS-like functions.
If you are capturing your images in RAW format, then Aperture will be a delight for you to use. Try before you buy with the 30 day trial.
eta: The list of supported cameras. Oly E-PL2 is not there, yet. It will certainly be added with the next Digital Camera Raw update. Just so you know.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 11:00:19. |
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05/05/2011 10:46:57 AM · #8 |
Does Olympus provide any decent RAW conversion utility with their camera? You could just use that and them pull the JPG or TIF output into PhotoShop.
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05/05/2011 11:00:14 AM · #9 |
I should have stated in my original post, I do use Aperture and I am sure they will come out with an update soon to support my camera.
That workflow works for me.
Adobe came out with ACR 6.4 a couple of weeks ago, Apple hasn't released an update to Aperture yet. I was hoping to use the Adobe plug in until then, especially when I travel for work with a PC laptop. It has PS CS4, too.
The Oly RAW conversion isn't quite there yet.
I thought about PS Elements. is the Adobe RAW for it the same as for Photoshop? |
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05/05/2011 11:01:41 AM · #10 |
| I'm using lightroom with nik software's complete collection plus photomatix as plug-ins, i will not renew photmatix as nik software's version is better i think. I was convinced for a while that i must be missing something by not having photoshop so i recently downloaded a 30 day trial, with about 7 days remaining one thing is for sure, i'll not be buying it. The camera raw engine in lightroom is the same one as in photoshop, so apart from a few bells and whistles that i don't use normally i don't see why i should spend all that money, i also find the interface of lightroom much better and i like the non destructive editing feature. Just looking through some of scarbrd pictures "which are awesome by the way" tells me most if not all of what he does can be achieved probably with greater ease in lightroom than in photoshop, just my opinion of course. |
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05/05/2011 11:03:40 AM · #11 |
| Sorry we posted at the same time, i didn't realize you had aperture. |
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05/05/2011 11:03:54 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
...I am sure they will come out with an update soon to support my camera. ... |
The last two Apple Digital Camera Raw updates were:
December 16, 2010
February 17, 2011
I'd expect another update very soon.
edited to fix typo.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 11:12:56. |
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05/05/2011 11:08:10 AM · #13 |
Adobe has a free DNG converter, it will batch-convert entire folders of RAW images into DNG quite handily. This was the workaround I used so I could edit 7D files in CS3, before I got the CS5 upgrade.
//www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=106&platform=Windows
R. |
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05/05/2011 11:17:56 AM · #14 |
LR is a good choice.
Actually, I think the best competitor to PS for the money is PS Elements. MUCH cheaper, for 85% of the functionality. And of course, you still have CS4 when you need to go beyond that! |
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05/05/2011 11:40:12 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Does Olympus provide any decent RAW conversion utility with their camera? You could just use that and them pull the JPG or TIF output into PhotoShop. |
Olympus Master is pretty bad. Very user unfriendly, and just about any third party software seems to do a better job with Olympus RAW files than the manufacturer's own software (highlight recovery comes to mind). Still, this is exactly what I do for my E520 and C7000 RAW files. |
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05/05/2011 12:01:56 PM · #16 |
I found a free raw convertor on-line that works great for converting files. It's called Raw Therapee. It's nothing fancy but it gets the job done.
Raw Therapee
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 12:02:56. |
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05/05/2011 01:52:07 PM · #17 |
Aperture 3 is $80 on the mac App store now--will convert your RAW files for you if that is all you want to use it for, but it will do a LOT more, and will still open your CS4 as if it were a plugin, along with other plugins you can get. So you would still be able to use your current version of PS. I don't know for certain that Aperture 3 will support your specific camera, but a free download trial can answer that. If it is a pretty new camera, it might not be there yet, but they update their raw converter fairly often.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 13:54:28. |
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05/05/2011 01:52:10 PM · #18 |
I've heard about that, but I also read that it doubles the file size and you lose some of the RAW editing capabilities? |
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05/05/2011 01:57:35 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
I suspect somewhere on the WWW is a program that will change your exif information so that the
converter will accept your cameras files. You'd just have to keep two versions of any image
you wanted to enter on this site. I haven't searched for such, but I remember a camera I had
about 4 years ago where I had the same problem and found a small program that could edit exif
in raw files. You could also use the raw converter that came with the camera and then edit that
in photoshop. |
When I started having this issue I did some research and found Exiftool. Works really well, kinda scary well actually. All I did was change the camera model on the files and it all worked in CS4 and bridge. |
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05/05/2011 05:38:31 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
I've heard about that, but I also read that it doubles the file size and you lose some of the RAW editing capabilities? |
I have used it as my Panasonic Lumix LX5 produces .RW2 RAW files which HDR Darkroom/HDR Pro does not recognise. The file size of the .DNG shots were smaller than the .RW2 file sizes.
I was then able to open these in HDR Darkroom/HDR Pro.
For non HDR work I use PSE9 to open them without any problem.
It's not juse Adobe, Everimaging who produce HDR Darkroom and HDR Pro do not support .RW2 files. They asked me to send them to their tech people and a few days later said they could not get them to work.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 17:40:56. |
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05/05/2011 05:44:48 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
When I started having this issue I did some research and found Exiftool. Works really well, kinda scary well actually. All I did was change the camera model on the files and it all worked in CS4 and bridge. |
That's pretty disappointing on their part isn't it? I guess the old adage, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" yet again has some truth to it. |
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05/05/2011 05:51:22 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... I guess the old adage, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" yet again has some truth to it. |
...Being the charitable soul that I am I will not make any comments on this one. :O)
Ray |
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05/05/2011 06:16:05 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
When I started having this issue I did some research and found Exiftool. Works really well, kinda scary well actually. All I did was change the camera model on the files and it all worked in CS4 and bridge. |
That's pretty disappointing on their part isn't it? I guess the old adage, "power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" yet again has some truth to it. |
I used to be such a big Adobe fan, too. I even had a license plate holder that said "I develop websites with Adobe products"
The 3 things that really get me
1. Not being able to upgrade Photoshop when it's bought as part of a Creative Suite. It's not like it's tied to the other products somehow. They all have stand alone installs.
2. The lack of support for anything other than the current version. Look at most other software companies, they support the current version and at least one version back, sometimes 2.
3. The idiotic package licensing, web, print, premium, extended, does anyone really like that?
It's not even the money, per se. People that know me know that I spend money on my gear and the things that go with it. But, I'm not a schmuck, either. Spending $650, and the only justification is RAW support for my current camera, just does not sit well with me.
I would spend $350 dollars if I could upgrade just Photoshop, but even that is borderline for me.
Under the current rules, I'd be better off in the long run spending $999 for full version of Photoshop Extended(!) and then upgrade it when necessary. But, that's not going to happen either.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 19:38:00. |
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05/05/2011 08:41:30 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
So, in order to use the RAW files on my new camera, I have to spend $650 on an upgrade I don't really want. The camera and lens cost $550. |
Why would you buy the full version when you can get the upgrade for $180?
Sorry, missed that you've got it through the whole suite.
Message edited by author 2011-05-05 20:43:04.
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05/05/2011 09:18:34 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
I've heard about that, but I also read that it doubles the file size and you lose some of the RAW editing capabilities? |
It certainly doesn't double the file size, no: but you still have the original RAW (which you need for DPC validation, if for no other reason) so you're using twice the space, yeah... I haven't seen any loss of functionality in the RAW conversion, as far as I've gone with it, which admittedly isn't that far since I don't use the Lumix that often and I have CS5 now anyway.
But the whole POINT of DNG, in theory, is to create a single standard that everything can convert to specifically so that issues like this will not happen. So I'd be stunned if they had created a format that involved any loss of any quality or functionality.
Arguably, and cynically, the reason Adobe doesn't backwards-engineer their stuff the way we'd like them to is because they are trying to push the world into DNG as the single, standard format. Certainly, their lives, and the lives of all software manufacturers, would be a heck of a lot simpler if the camera companies would standardize on DNG as the go-to RAW formula.
It's interesting: on the one hand it's hard for me to get worked up over the fact that Adobe won't go and reverse-engineer all old levels of RAW converters every time a manufacturer comes out with a newer! better! improved! RAW format. I mean, that's EXPENSIVE. But then, when I see that in the case of your PEN files ALL that's required is a name coding, then I shake my head a little on the penny-wise and pound-foolish aspect of the thing, but...
Anyway give DNG a try, I liked it fine.
R. |
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