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05/04/2011 02:09:30 AM · #1 |
I have a suggestion that I hope will be heard and maybe even implemented. I am getting used to the low scores at DP and really that is ok with me as I am still getting challenged. On the "sinful" challenge however I received five 1's, six 2's and count them...sixteen 3's and so it is. It rated actually higher than I thought and I appreciate all the votes and many comments given. Thank you! I do not believe the shot deserved 1's or 2's but there are many others that got those too.
In the case of my picture I am afraid the reason might be p___s envy...hehe..never mind that:)
My suggestion is as follows: I feel that when someone leaves such a low score they really should also leave an explanation of why they think a photograph is flat out BAD and the above mentioned envy is not a good reason I think. This forum is for learning after all and how can one learn if there is no reason given why a work is rated so low.
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 02:10:45. |
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05/04/2011 02:14:12 AM · #2 |
somewhere i hear the sound of someone beating a dead horse
edit:
Sorry, i see you are still somewhat new, let me just say this subject has been rehashed so many times it no longer bears any resemblance to an actual subject anymore but has become more of an unrecognizable pile of goo...
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 02:18:45. |
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05/04/2011 02:16:36 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
somewhere i hear the sound of someone beating a dead horse |
Bummer...did not know that suggestion was already posted...sorry... |
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05/04/2011 02:20:17 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by antje1777:
Originally posted by smardaz:
somewhere i hear the sound of someone beating a dead horse |
Bummer...did not know that suggestion was already posted...sorry... |
don't be sorry, most everyone agrees with you, some have gone so far as to suggest coding the site so as to REQUIRE a comment for a vote of 1,2 or 3 but as someone said in another thread, things change around here at a glacial rate
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 02:20:36. |
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05/04/2011 02:25:24 AM · #5 |
some have gone so far as to suggest coding the site so as to REQUIRE a comment for a vote of 1,2 or 3 but as someone said in another thread, things change around here at a glacial rate [/quote]
I agree with a requirement for a vote of 1,2 and 3 and I think it certainly would sort out some of those who are clueless :), but you are probably right that such thing will not happen for a looooong time :(
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 02:25:50. |
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05/04/2011 02:26:09 AM · #6 |
The problem would be the anonymity, they wouldn't be able to hide! Suppose if they could code it so if someone leaves a 1, 2 or 3 it requires a comment and it shows the name as anonymous.
I am curious if it is always the same people, or if its really just how some people feel about some pictures. Probably both. Can we sort users by average vote given?! :)
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05/04/2011 02:27:59 AM · #7 |
Yeah, you don't have the benefit of being around for a long time, but it's pretty frequently talked about. There used to even be a "hinting" at making a comment if you supplied score of 3 or lower. It doesn't, in practice, work. People just vote low as they can without triggering that. Less fiddling with voting, the better.
Some people get really angry when you say negative things. I've gotten PM's about supplying a negative comment, and I know others have too, but it's just part of how things work. It discourages some, but not all. I'll still throw out a negative comment if I feel I should, but some just forgo the trouble it may cause them.
Be the change you want to see in the world, is how I view it.
::shrugs::
Also, the photo you reference is of a slightly divisive nature, simply because it contains humor, and more specifically, of a potentially crude topic. While I don't feel this way, there are many that do, and you should make it all easier on yourself and just accept that anytime you post something like that you'll get sharper responses on both sides of things.
Another way of looking at things is that you're asking for explanation for your 11 votes of 1 & 2 but not the 11 votes of 9 & 10. What's different? |
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05/04/2011 02:31:06 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Another way of looking at things is that you're asking for explanation for your 11 votes of 1 & 2 but not the 11 votes of 9 & 10. What's different? |
Good point |
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05/04/2011 02:33:22 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Socom:
The problem would be the anonymity, they wouldn't be able to hide! Suppose if they could code it so if someone leaves a 1, 2 or 3 it requires a comment and it shows the name as anonymous.
I am curious if it is always the same people, or if its really just how some people feel about some pictures. Probably both. Can we sort users by average vote given?! :) |
They should not be able to hide, because if they have a valid reason for voting low I can accept that. Their votes do not need to show, but they will have to give a reason, which for some might be too great an expectation or too much effort and right there takes care at least somewhat of the problem. I suspect that the majority of low voters are not actually photographing themselves or they would know how important feedback is?! |
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05/04/2011 02:38:50 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Also, the photo you reference is of a slightly divisive nature, simply because it contains humor, and more specifically, of a potentially crude topic. While I don't feel this way, there are many that do, and you should make it all easier on yourself and just accept that anytime you post something like that you'll get sharper responses on both sides of things.
Another way of looking at things is that you're asking for explanation for your 11 votes of 1 & 2 but not the 11 votes of 9 & 10. What's different? |
What is the difference you asked...well, if it is a high vote you have obviously reached the viewer with your intended purpose of the picture you took and they are able to see what you have created in terms of artistic vision. On a low vote one has not reached a certain audience and therefore it is important to know why...yes?? |
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05/04/2011 02:55:04 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by antje1777:
What is the difference you asked...well, if it is a high vote you have obviously reached the viewer with your intended purpose of the picture you took and they are able to see what you have created in terms of artistic vision. On a low vote one has not reached a certain audience and therefore it is important to know why...yes?? |
Yes, but you're assuming the fashion you think you're successful is the same as what the viewer thinks. This is often not the case. We all have images that resonate with us for this reason or that, and often this diverges with the artist's intent or thought process. Think of how different your interpretations and connections are with a favorite song of yours compared to explanations of a recording artist. The same is true of photography.
Further, a high vote may be made in spite of obvious flaws to the viewer because such flaws can be looked past. This, however, does not make those flaws any less present, and improving upon them would, in some situations, improve the photo.
Confirmation bias, this all is, expecting explanations for opinions that aren't in concert but letting others that agree slide, regardless. |
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05/04/2011 03:12:17 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by antje1777:
What is the difference you asked...well, if it is a high vote you have obviously reached the viewer with your intended purpose of the picture you took and they are able to see what you have created in terms of artistic vision. On a low vote one has not reached a certain audience and therefore it is important to know why...yes?? |
Yes, but you're assuming the fashion you think you're successful is the same as what the viewer thinks. This is often not the case. We all have images that resonate with us for this reason or that, and often this diverges with the artist's intent or thought process. Think of how different your interpretations and connections are with a favorite song of yours compared to explanations of a recording artist. The same is true of photography.
Further, a high vote may be made in spite of obvious flaws to the viewer because such flaws can be looked past. This, however, does not make those flaws any less present, and improving upon them would, in some situations, improve the photo.
Confirmation bias, this all is, expecting explanations for opinions that aren't in concert but letting others that agree slide, regardless. |
I somewhat agree with what you wrote however, I do think that voting should be based first on having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste. When one rates 1 or 2 it should be assumed that none of the requirements (having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste) have been met.That would require a 1 vote, but even the worst of pictures I have seen on DP have not warranted that vote in my opinion as most people that enter do their best to succed in either of the categories of requirement. |
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05/04/2011 03:51:05 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by antje1777:
I somewhat agree with what you wrote however, I do think that voting should be based first on having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste. When one rates 1 or 2 it should be assumed that none of the requirements (having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste) have been met.That would require a 1 vote, but even the worst of pictures I have seen on DP have not warranted that vote in my opinion as most people that enter do their best to succed in either of the categories of requirement. |
I get what you're saying, but it's also essentially "ideological imperialism."
"The only correct vote is my vote."
Which begs... why have voting?
The whole point is establishing the best through commonality, it relies upon the variety of people's viewpoints. If everybody had the same value system... we'd all know what the outcome would be, voting would be superfluous.
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 03:54:17. |
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05/04/2011 05:37:58 AM · #14 |
Hi Antje,
I personally concur with some form of requirement for a low vote, however if applied, the end result is that a 4 vote would become the new 1, 2 or 3. Or the comment will merely read "." or "!" and you can take this further...code the site to require at least >1 character in the comment box and you will get ".." or "!!" so there you have it. Forcing someone to comment has never worked and I doubt there will ever be a solution to this never ending issue. A 1, 2 or 3 should be indicative enough that many people dislike(d) the image and it is up to you improve your work by comparison and more active participation. |
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05/04/2011 06:50:17 AM · #15 |
While I understand your desire to receive comment and critique about your images, it is important to remember that the vote IS saying something. The low scores are telling you something - that to a certain percentage of folks that voted, they did not like it - either because it was not technically a good photo, it didn't appear to meet the challenge, or it was not a photo they liked, or the voter doesn't like balloons, or whatever.
I find it interesting that you are complaining about not receiving comments, and yet after 6 months on the site, you have given so few yourself (less than 90). Maybe it is time for you to step up and deliver some of those comments yourself - and leave the hard message on those that you don't like.
It has worked nicely for many of us. Personally, when I started commenting more, and being critical about other photogs work, I began to see my own a bit more critically, and in the end started to improve my vision.
Cheers! |
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05/04/2011 08:28:21 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by antje1777:
some have gone so far as to suggest coding the site so as to REQUIRE a comment for a vote of 1,2 or 3 but as someone said in another thread, things change around here at a glacial rate |
I agree with a requirement for a vote of 1,2 and 3 and I think it certainly would sort out some of those who are clueless :), but you are probably right that such thing will not happen for a looooong time :( [/quote]
Not sure I agree. For a start forcing a comment removes the anonimity, secondly I think that forcing a comment may not drive the kind of behaviour one is looking for. You might find that the trolls move the scale up so would vote 4 where they would normally vote 1 and 10 where they would vote 7. The other obvious issue is that folks could just type "asdf" but I would expect that to be unlikely unless the comments were anonimous.
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05/04/2011 08:58:20 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
Personally, when I started commenting more, and being critical about other photogs work, I began to see my own a bit more critically, and in the end started to improve my vision. |
No need to say it myself now that Peter did. Making yourself analyze why you don't care for an image is one of the strongest learning experiences to be had on DPC. Especially if you make yourself leave those critiques on the midrange votes of 4 and 5. It's easy to identify why something really sucks or to wow about one you love, but those midrange entries offer the strongest learning experience for the commenter.
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05/04/2011 11:17:16 AM · #18 |
I assume its been brought up before, but, right now the voting is a single 1-10. What if it was more of a weighted vote.
Requirements 1-10
Technical 1-10
Visual 1-10
The system could then either automatically give the numbers weight (req point = 1:1, technical = 1:1, visually appealing = 1:0.5) or just divide by 3.
Sure its a tad more effort for voters, but I think it would give the shooters a better idea of why their picture did better or did worse then they expected.
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05/04/2011 11:23:11 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by Socom:
I assume its been brought up before, but, right now the voting is a single 1-10. What if it was more of a weighted vote.
Requirements 1-10
Technical 1-10
Visual 1-10
The system could then either automatically give the numbers weight (req point = 1:1, technical = 1:1, visually appealing = 1:0.5) or just divide by 3.
Sure its a tad more effort for voters, but I think it would give the shooters a better idea of why their picture did better or did worse then they expected. |
If you want to know why a shot didn't score well, ask post challenge and I am sure there are a number of kind folks that would be happy to oblige. Obligating the voters (and there are few of these folks around) to score an image 3 times seems to make the whole process even more difficult, resulting in fewer voters and a less representative score....
And with regards to your weighting system, which of the three buckets would get the most value? And why? Or would it be up to the voter to choose?
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 11:37:05. |
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05/04/2011 11:25:13 AM · #20 |
The reality is that inspired comments are better than forced ones. Forced ones tend to be the least helpful.
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05/04/2011 12:08:12 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Socom:
I assume its been brought up before, but, right now the voting is a single 1-10. What if it was more of a weighted vote.
Requirements 1-10
Technical 1-10
Visual 1-10
The system could then either automatically give the numbers weight (req point = 1:1, technical = 1:1, visually appealing = 1:0.5) or just divide by 3.
Sure its a tad more effort for voters, but I think it would give the shooters a better idea of why their picture did better or did worse then they expected. |
I like your idea very much...but...that will never happen! |
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05/04/2011 12:17:02 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
And with regards to your weighting system, which of the three buckets would get the most value? And why? Or would it be up to the voter to choose? |
You could do even weighted values, as there is an argument for who would think which is most important.
So you would see my picture in all its glory :) and say hey...
Req: 8
Tech: 6
Visual: 2
Avg: 5.333
The problem I think with just two brackets.. Req/Tech and then Visual is that it would bring your avg vote lower then what I think most would feel is fair if someone doesnt like your picture.
The added benefit to this, is it can give you a lot more data about your pictures, if the show each of the vaules. (like the square challenge)
Req/Tech: 7
Visual : 2
Avg: 4.5
Course then you could weight it
Req/Tech: 7 (value 1:1 = 7)
Visual : 2 (value 0.5:1 = 4)
Avg: 5.5
Message edited by author 2011-05-04 12:20:14. |
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05/04/2011 12:19:33 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by antje1777:
I somewhat agree with what you wrote however, I do think that voting should be based first on having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste. When one rates 1 or 2 it should be assumed that none of the requirements (having fullfilled the given assignment, then quality, then personal taste) have been met.That would require a 1 vote, but even the worst of pictures I have seen on DP have not warranted that vote in my opinion as most people that enter do their best to succed in either of the categories of requirement. |
I get what you're saying, but it's also essentially "ideological imperialism."
"The only correct vote is my vote."
Which begs... why have voting?
The whole point is establishing the best through commonality, it relies upon the variety of people's viewpoints. If everybody had the same value system... we'd all know what the outcome would be, voting would be superfluous. |
"ideological imperialism"
No, the only correct vote is not my vote and after reading all the comments on this post I am convinced that this issue will not ever be fixed and maybe it does not need to be. I suppose it is democracy. I would have liked to learn from my mistakes, on the other hand I have noticed that the top ranking photographs are almost always the same style for a few exceptions. So maybe that is my answer...I will not assimilate, I can't... |
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05/04/2011 01:12:57 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by antje1777:
I will not assimilate, I can't... |
I look forward to seeing your wine glass shots in the near future. 
Really though, you just need to remember that the top winners of any challenge represent popular appeal, what the most people agreed on. "Best" is a very subjective term. Some of my own personal best shots did not come close to a ribbon and I have at least one ribbon that I don't feel deserved it, but more people agreed it was good than bad. Broad appeal is a fickle and strange thing.
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05/04/2011 01:19:07 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by antje1777:
I will not assimilate, I can't... |
I look forward to seeing your wine glass shots in the near future.
Really though, you just need to remember that the top winners of any challenge represent popular appeal, what the most people agreed on. "Best" is a very subjective term. Some of my own personal best shots did not come close to a ribbon and I have at least one ribbon that I don't feel deserved it, but more people agreed it was good than bad. Broad appeal is a fickle and strange thing. |
Thank you for your comment! Love your pictures, especially Morning Song! So artfully done! |
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