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04/28/2011 12:39:31 PM · #26 |
This is a fun thread. If the "skill" one is trying to master has a metric, this is easy to gauge. If it is "art" then, it is "difficult" but not impossible to measure. Some on the thread have indicated that art is purely subjective, and I agree. However, the technical skills of an artform are totally measurable, as many people have pointed out to me in regardes to some of my suckier shots. I think, as someone trying to learn the art of photography, my first goal must be to master the technical aspects of the craft. Because if every shot I turn in has poor focus, then my personal vision is subdued by my lack of skill.
In regards to perception of art. . . I agree, some art was not popular in its time, and the most important thing to do is art for art's sake. One thing a person told me once about painting, which I hope is true for photography is this:
"Don't just scribble paint across a canvas and call yourself Pollock. Because if you want the cred for being a person with a unique vision, you have to show me that you have the technical skills and are choosing to do this of your own accord, not becaus you have no other choice. At heart, art is choice, and if your work is what most would consider technically flawed, you must silence them by being able to produce technical perfection. That shows the world you are doing what you are doing by choice and thus you can join the Picasso's, Van Gogh's, etc. who chose a different path due to their soul and not their skill."
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04/28/2011 12:39:41 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo: ... I think we get stuck in our own "OK plateaus", places where our photography becomes uninspired and automatic. The question is, how to change that? ... |
It's a great forum topic Doc. I think that the responses so far have mostly missed your point somewhat, so perhaps I can be forgiven if I miss it as well.
I'm not really a photographer at all (as a glance at my profile will attest), but I am a writer and this same issue of stuck/plateau/uninspired/automatic torments me at times. It's a variation of writer's block, in which you are reaching for a new level but just can't figure out how to get there; how to move beyond the comfortable and familiar. And as far as I know there is only one solution for writers: just write. Don't concentrate on quality, aim instead for quantity. Write, write, write, without allowing your internal critic any time to give you pause. What happens is that after a reasonable (sometimes rather more than reasonable) output of the same old rubbish, some kind of subconscious hand starts to guide your pen. You know that you have found another level, and yet you must not stop to congratulate yourself because it's not established yet, it's merely an echo of that elusive new level. You've got to look the other way, and just keep writing. When you are exhausted, and can do no more, you stop. Then, when you've refreshed yourself with a good night's sleep, you can go back and mine the seam of gold that you have partially exposed.
I suspect that for photographers, the same sort of process will work. As for how to measure it, I have no idea. All I know is that you do recognise it when it happens. Presumably that means that it's being measured by your own internal critic. But that's fine because surely nobody else can tell you when you have reached a new level as a photographer. |
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04/28/2011 01:46:06 PM · #28 |
ubique's advice is very much like that to the beginner in the other thread. analogies abound but they are not the lesser for that. - Singing comes to mind: if you do not exercise your voice you will hardly have one. One of the best things that can happen to a choir, apart from a good party, is to have a day or half of exercises involving the whole body. The universe is bigger than the particular choral work, than your voice part. Extend yourself, risk the "wild barbaric yawp." |
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04/28/2011 02:35:47 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by tnun: ubique's advice is very much like that to the beginner in the other thread. analogies abound but they are not the lesser for that. - Singing comes to mind: if you do not exercise your voice you will hardly have one. One of the best things that can happen to a choir, apart from a good party, is to have a day or half of exercises involving the whole body. The universe is bigger than the particular choral work, than your voice part. Extend yourself, risk the "wild barbaric yawp." |
True. However, in regards to Einstein, he is speaking about quantative methodology. He is discussing the fact that most people stop at adequate because adequate is what they need to survive. What the beginner post is indicating is an artist who does not feel his work is "adequate" and is trying to excel. Which is why I think most of us are here. I can post my photos on social networking sites, and or join other challenge groups where the photos I take would be rejoiced at. However, I learned while playing chess that a person does not get better competing against lesser or equal opponents. The only way a person really gets better is to compete against superior competion and learn (if they can) to rise up to it.
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04/28/2011 02:45:42 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by crowis: Originally posted by tnun: ubique's advice is very much like that to the beginner in the other thread. analogies abound but they are not the lesser for that. - Singing comes to mind: if you do not exercise your voice you will hardly have one. One of the best things that can happen to a choir, apart from a good party, is to have a day or half of exercises involving the whole body. The universe is bigger than the particular choral work, than your voice part. Extend yourself, risk the "wild barbaric yawp." |
True. However, in regards to Einstein, he is speaking about quantative methodology. He is discussing the fact that most people stop at adequate because adequate is what they need to survive. What the beginner post is indicating is an artist who does not feel his work is "adequate" and is trying to excel. Which is why I think most of us are here. I can post my photos on social networking sites, and or join other challenge groups where the photos I take would be rejoiced at. However, I learned while playing chess that a person does not get better competing against lesser or equal opponents. The only way a person really gets better is to compete against superior competion and learn (if they can) to rise up to it. |
Interestingly, the book talked about chess and said the most correlated measure of a chessman's skill was how many old games they went over that had been played by people better than themselves. The more you purposely reviewed other games, the better you tended to be. |
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04/28/2011 02:59:16 PM · #31 |
Well, if you insist that the improvement is a matter of "metrics" you will surely be stuck. Creatively. |
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04/28/2011 03:09:28 PM · #32 |
@tnun - I don't believe that improvement is purely metric in an artistic sense. However, we cannot really place a measurable metric on how one's aesthetic sense is improving (as this is purely a matter of individual taste). We can, however, metric a person's techical grasp of photography. Anyone who studies enough and practices enough can probably become a good photgrapher, but to be a photographic artist that is held in respect by his peers (either in this life or after) is a whole different issue as it combines skill plus aesthetic.
@Doc - I hate bringing up chess metaphors, because someone always throws the "egg-head" hat at you, if you do. However, it is incredibly apt when discussing improvements in skill. It is not just studying the games (or playing new ones) that increases a players skill, but UNDERSTANDING why a former master moved his piece at a specific time. Why did he/she make THAT choice in that situation and not another. Per my prior message about choice and art, this is the same metaphor. Art is all about expression, and choice of expression. If my skills are not adequate to express my internal "Bawitwaba"--so to speak--, then I am bound to be frustrated. Which is where a lot of us on this site spend some time occasionally--at least I would imagine that is the case. BTW, thanks for this post, it is an interesting topic.
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04/28/2011 03:10:55 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by tnun: Well, if you insist that the improvement is a matter of "metrics" you will surely be stuck. Creatively. |
This is true but if you study and master various lighting styles, it opens up endless possibilities, "Creatively" speaking.
Tim |
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04/28/2011 04:17:37 PM · #34 |
According to Malcolm Gladwell's Book "The Outliers" (I think it was that one) It takes a human being 15,000 hours of practice at his craft till he becomes a professional in the realm of mastering his craft. Its an interesting book, you should read all of them.
Message edited by author 2011-04-28 16:18:05. |
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04/28/2011 04:19:08 PM · #35 |
Another interesting difference between experts and adequates is that, when studied, it appears they pay attention to completely different things. This, I think, is clearly apparent in photography and probably reinforces what was said up above. Without implying at all that I am somehow an "expert", I have found many times when I'm shooting with someone else they will ask, "why are you shooting from there? or like that?" and I reply that the background is better from this angle they will often look perplexed and say, "huh, I wasn't even paying attention to the background". |
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04/28/2011 04:37:36 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo: Another interesting difference between experts and adequates is that, when studied, it appears they pay attention to completely different things. This, I think, is clearly apparent in photography and probably reinforces what was said up above. Without implying at all that I am somehow an "expert", I have found many times when I'm shooting with someone else they will ask, "why are you shooting from there? or like that?" and I reply that the background is better from this angle they will often look perplexed and say, "huh, I wasn't even paying attention to the background". |
I don't remember ever shooting with you????? LOL
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04/28/2011 06:11:06 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by ubique: ...Write, write, write, without allowing your internal critic any time to give you pause. What happens is that after a reasonable (sometimes rather more than reasonable) output of the same old rubbish, some kind of subconscious hand starts to guide your pen. You know that you have found another level... |
Hmmmm...but doesn't this thought imply that the gift of the subconscious writing hand must be present to begin with? For those of you who are lucky enough to have it, all you need to do is let the rubbish out and then let the magic happen from its unburied state.
But, not everyone is so gifted...:-/
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