Focus Issue Experiment Round 1 - DPChallenge Forums

04/19/2011 07:49:00 PM · #1

Ok...

So I didn't have time to set up the ruler test today, but I did have time after my wife and I ate lunch to grab a few pictures and let me experiment with focusing and apertures with the 50mm 1.4.

Some people had suggested my previous problems were generated by shooting at f1.8 and f2 (too shallow). So I decided to shoot from 2.8 to 5.6 and see what the results were.

This is on a 7D using spot focus and manually selecting the focus point over the eye.

This image was shot at f5.6 and was the best of the bunch (this is with processing and sharpening):

//www.flickr.com/photos/kevingeary/5635736907/

And now the problem...

This was also shot at F5.6 and is a 100% crop with no processing:

//kevingearyphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/MG_4315-1.jpg

For F5.6, that's unacceptable to me. And this isn't the only one. It seems the only decent results were gained at 5.6 and doing closeups, but even then it wasn't consistent. And any shots that had any extra distance from subject to camera were worse, even at 5.6.

I've heard this lens is tack sharp from 2.8 and above and from where I sit, there's no way that's true. I wouldn't even call the first image "tack sharp."

What say you?

And for $600 (I know, not L glass) a PRIME lens should be sharper at 5.6. I mean shit, I'm working well above the maximum aperture and it's a PRIME lens. WTF.

Message edited by Manic - please keep images under 500px and 30kb, or post links or thumbs instead.

04/19/2011 08:00:04 PM · #2

I don't know brother....that shot looks spot on focus...cropping to 100% will always get you some softness. I'll post a 100% crop from a pic I took this weekend....check back in a bit.

...but...is the 100% corp of the eyes from the same photo? It looks different.

Can you post an unedited photo of the first one of your wife and then crop to 100% on the eyes? We really can't tell anything from edited photos !

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 20:13:41.

04/19/2011 08:09:49 PM · #3

Right out of my D700 with no editing...in RAW.

I'd say we both have the same focus issue !

100% crop is below.

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 20:10:06.

04/19/2011 08:11:53 PM · #4

Maybe you missed my previous suggestion you update your firmware. These were shot with Canon 7D firmware 1.2.1, which is two or three firmware updates behind. Sorry, but you may have missed some important firmware updates. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I'll be happy to comment on your images when you're up to speed with most recent software. Otherwise, any deficiencies in your images could be due to firmware problems already solved.

Canon 7D firmware 1.2.3

eta: link to firmware update

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 20:14:52.

04/19/2011 08:20:22 PM · #5

Originally posted by kenskid:

Right out of my D700 with no editing...in RAW.

I'd say we both have the same focus issue !

100% crop is below.

Motion blur and/or camera shake. This is not sharp and it's not the equipment. Just the facts!

04/19/2011 08:40:26 PM · #6

Originally posted by hahn23:

I lost the CD that came with my camera... :(

The update won't install unless you have the CD loaded on your computer.

Or you can upload from the CF card, but I don't have a card reader. I just plug my camera into my computer via USB. And my camera doesn't show up as a drive this way.

Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM

04/19/2011 08:49:21 PM · #7

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kenskid:
Right out of my D700 with no editing...in RAW.

I'd say we both have the same focus issue !

100% crop is below.

Motion blur and/or camera shake. This is not sharp and it's not the equipment. Just the facts!

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 20:51:37.

cpanaioti

Canon EOS-40D

04/19/2011 08:59:14 PM · #8

If you are using the focus-recompose technique and an aperture that produces shallow DOF then you may be the cause of your own problem. Recomposing after focus lock could be changing the subject to camera distance therefore changing what is actually in focus.

04/19/2011 09:01:45 PM · #9

Originally posted by kgeary:

Buy a card reader. It will make you money.

Are you saying you are going to live with an out-of-date firmware version forever? So, you want us to suggest fixes for something that may have been fixed by Canon firmware updates? Correct me if I"m wrong.

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 21:07:35.

Carl Zeiss Planar T 50mm f/1.7

04/19/2011 09:04:06 PM · #10

Originally posted by kenskid:

Handheld? What shutter speed? VR lens? I'm just trying to help you understand why your image is OOF. Yes, RAW images will need some sharpening, but you can't make chicken salad out of....

tryals15

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

04/19/2011 09:11:11 PM · #11

That looks like camera shake, not missed focus.

04/19/2011 09:14:00 PM · #12

Hahn....I'm trying to tell you that an UNCROPPED image will ALWAYS look sharper than a cropped image. To say something like..."my camera or lens is broke" and the reason for thinking the camera or lens is broke is to look at an UNCROPPED image and then take a 100% crop and say...this is not in focus is NO GOOD !

I'm trying to show the OP that my UNCROPPED image looks sharp COMPARED to the 100% crop on the eyes. From what I saw in his previous thread, it is EXACTLY what you are telling me. He was using an f1.8 setting and then looking at the uncropped version. The version I saw was ok and just missed focus a bit. However, when he cropped to 100%, the focus was a big issue.

So in short.....you shouldn't feel there is an issue with your camera or FIRMWARE if the only test is to compare an UNCROPPED photo along side the same photo at a 100% crop.

Also...it doesn't matter what my settings were. My point was DON'T COMPARE UNCROPPED PHOTOS TO 100% CROPS.

Can you make chicken salad with that?

Originally posted by hahn23:

04/19/2011 09:18:53 PM · #13

Originally posted by kenskid:

...Can you make chicken salad with that?......

100% pixel view of sharp images should be almost sharp, not way off focus. I'm saying you missed the focus on your image due to poorly placed depth of field, camera shake or motion blur. I understand why you don't want to share shot data. That's okay. But, you did not acquire a sharp enough image for one of the myriad reasons. Correct me, if I'm wrong. You will not be able to bring an OOF image up to sharp focus with postprocessing. This is what you are missing.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 18-70mm 1:35-4.5G ED

04/19/2011 09:19:37 PM · #14

Originally posted by kenskid:

I posted this set to show that an uncropped photo will ALWAYS look sharper than a small section of the photo cropped at 100%. A 100% crop will magnify ANY motion or blur. There isn't a cam on use on this website that can boast the same sharp look at 100% crop as at an uncropped photo.....just the facts !

Edit...this is what the OP is working with. He is comparing a 100% crop to an uncropped version.

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kenskid:
Right out of my D700 with no editing...in RAW.

I'd say we both have the same focus issue !

100% crop is below.

Motion blur and/or camera shake. This is not sharp and it's not the equipment. Just the facts!

I wasn't. I compared the 100% crops before posting the pictures.

Socom

Nikon D80

04/19/2011 09:20:09 PM · #15

Since this conversation is already open ill ask a question here rather then opening a new one. I think my camera has a focusing problem as well as I feel it happens with both of my lenses, however also very likely it is just me.

So, that being said, what is the best test we (I) can do on my own to verify this. I have two different lenses. Is it Tripod and a measuring tape? If so, what ranges? or should I do a color swatch, or a bullseye? I would love to take the pictures and see if you all think I have an issue or if I am just to hyper for my own good :)

04/19/2011 09:22:06 PM · #16

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kgeary:

I lost the CD that came with my camera... :(

The update won't install unless you have the CD loaded on your computer.

Or you can upload from the CF card, but I don't have a card reader. I just plug my camera into my computer via USB. And my camera doesn't show up as a drive this way.

Buy a card reader. It will make you money.

Are you saying you are going to live with an out-of-date firmware version forever? So, you want us to suggest fixes for something that may have been fixed by Canon firmware updates? Correct me if I"m wrong.

I'm going to get a card reader. I'm going to update my firmware. But I'd expect that an $1800 camera doesn't miss focus consistently because it needs a firmware update.

04/19/2011 09:23:28 PM · #17

For Hahn or anyone else to be able to give an educated guess at your issue we would really have to see an unedited version and a 100% crop...you had it in your other post...can you drop it in here?

Originally posted by kgeary:

Originally posted by kenskid:
I posted this set to show that an uncropped photo will ALWAYS look sharper than a small section of the photo cropped at 100%. A 100% crop will magnify ANY motion or blur. There isn't a cam on use on this website that can boast the same sharp look at 100% crop as at an uncropped photo.....just the facts !

Edit...this is what the OP is working with. He is comparing a 100% crop to an uncropped version.

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kenskid:
Right out of my D700 with no editing...in RAW.

I'd say we both have the same focus issue !

100% crop is below.

Motion blur and/or camera shake. This is not sharp and it's not the equipment. Just the facts!

I wasn't. I compared the 100% crops before posting the pictures.

04/19/2011 09:24:34 PM · #18

Here is what the latest firmware fixes:

Firmware version 1.2.3 incorporates the following fixes.

1. Fixes a phenomenon in which the settings of the Speedlite Transmitter ST-E2 revert to the default settings when both the camera and the ST-E2 are set to auto power off.

2. Fixes a phenomenon in which the Macro Ring Lite (MR-14EX, MT24-EX) and slave flashes do not sync while shooting wirelessly.

I looked back over the last two updates and couldn't find anything about focus issues.

Originally posted by kgeary:

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kgeary:

I lost the CD that came with my camera... :(

The update won't install unless you have the CD loaded on your computer.

Or you can upload from the CF card, but I don't have a card reader. I just plug my camera into my computer via USB. And my camera doesn't show up as a drive this way.

Buy a card reader. It will make you money.

Are you saying you are going to live with an out-of-date firmware version forever? So, you want us to suggest fixes for something that may have been fixed by Canon firmware updates? Correct me if I"m wrong.

I'm going to get a card reader. I'm going to update my firmware. But I'd expect that an $1800 camera doesn't miss focus consistently because it needs a firmware update.

04/19/2011 09:27:35 PM · #19

When I went through this focus issue years ago, someone on DPC told me to setup the measuring tape and shoot at different fstops while cam is on a tripod.

EVERY photo UNCROPPED looked great and sharp where I was focusing. EVERY photo looked somewhat soft at 100% crop. I never had a focusing problem again....at least when shooting with a tripod !

Originally posted by Socom:

04/19/2011 09:28:22 PM · #20

Originally posted by Socom:

Good questions! This is the essence of digital photography. One of the first things I do when sorting images is to examine them with a loupe (most RAW processing apps have this) at 100% pixels. The most effective images will have a very sharp RAW image. Those which don't have a sharp image will not be able to be brought up enough to be effective.

In addition to what I've already suggested... tripod mount, fast shutter speed, no motion blur, no camera shake... you should also try the mirror lockup function to avoid shutter slap vibrations. I think we need to trust our cameras and lenses. I always assume OOF is my mistake. And, then I implement steps to eliminate vibrations in future efforts.

eta: The Japanese are a proud and stoic people. They don't always announce fixes to MAJOR problems in the accompanying text to firmware updates.

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 21:34:58.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/19/2011 09:29:33 PM · #21

God....yes Hahn I know what you are saying....on the OPs other thread, it looks as though he did EXACTLY what you are saying I did with my samples here. And.....the error is MAGNIFIED when you crop !!!

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by kenskid:
...Can you make chicken salad with that?......

100% pixel view of sharp images should be almost sharp, not way off focus. I'm saying you missed the focus on your image due to poorly placed depth of field, camera shake or motion blur. I understand why you don't want to share shot data. That's okay. But, you did not acquire a sharp enough image for one of the myriad reasons. Correct me, if I'm wrong. You will not be able to bring an OOF image up to sharp focus with postprocessing. This is what you are missing.

spiritualspatula

04/19/2011 09:31:06 PM · #22

Originally posted by Socom:

Go here

ETA: ensure VR is off if tripod shooting, if you didn't already know that.

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 21:35:23.

04/19/2011 09:35:34 PM · #23

Here is the first thread

As you can see, the photo in question is out of focus but is of fair quality, however at 100% crop it is horrid. His camera and lens is not broken.

Edit: ...and RH, if his focusing issues as described in his samples from the link above is fixed by a FIRMWARE update, I'll carry your two bowling balls for you on your next photo shoot.

Message edited by author 2011-04-19 21:42:22.

04/19/2011 09:41:21 PM · #24

Originally posted by kenskid:

Here is the first thread

As you can see, the photo in question is out of focus but is of fair quality, however at 100% crop it is horrid. His camera and lens is not broken.

de facto evidence to the contrary! I followed that thread. Looks like serious front focusing to me. But, this may have been fixed in subsequent firmware updates. In case you missed it, I said the Japanese are proud and stoic people. They don't always admit and broadcast MAJOR fixes to their equipment in minor firmware updates.

So, first step is to update the firmware. Then, do some serious focus testing. If the problem persists, then some micro-adjusting of focusing should be done. However, I already know firmware 1.2.4 is out there. And, I wouldn't make a lot of front/back focusing adjustments until the firmware is up to date. That's just being professional.