question regarding validation - DPChallenge Forums

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/06/2011 11:20:12 AM · #1

Has anyone else here been sent a validation request after the challenge is over and when you're not in the top five? The rules don't seem to include this possibility.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/06/2011 11:23:22 AM · #2

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Has anyone else here been sent a validation request after the challenge is over and when you're not in the top five? The rules don't seem to include this possibility.

Sure. Sometimes a member will read the editing steps in your notes and say "Whoa! That's not right!" and submit a ticket. There's nothing to preclude that happening; the rules specify that the top 5 will always be validated, but they don't say anywhere that no others can be validated.

R.

Olympus 30mm f/3.5 Macro M.Zuiko Digital ED

03/06/2011 11:27:20 AM · #3

well I had no idea..... so I could then go back to a challenge two years ago where I had reason to believe the entry should have been looked at, submit a ticket, and the image could still get DQd?
Or what IS the timeframe? For how long a period of time are we expected to keep our original files in case we might be asked for them?

obscurity

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX85

03/06/2011 11:33:38 AM · #4

I think some people have nothing better to do than sit here and nitpick every little thing instead of just enjoying the pictures.

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/06/2011 11:33:52 AM · #5

So essentially originals must be kept indefinitely? A simple addition to the rules as it is not clear now.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

03/06/2011 01:34:27 PM · #6

valid question. dpc public at large has no rights to know exactly how a photo was shopped, but this way the public can appreciate what is done within certain parameters. As for keeping files, yes, a statute of limitations would certainly be indicated.

lawrysimm

Sony SLT-A57

Sony SAL-1855 DT 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

03/06/2011 01:36:25 PM · #7

I have read somewhere that a photo validation request can be made up to 7 days after challenge has ended. Not sure where I read that though...

lawrysimm

Sony SLT-A57

Sony SAL-1855 DT 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

03/06/2011 01:44:52 PM · #8

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Has anyone else here been sent a validation request after the challenge is over and when you're not in the top five? The rules don't seem to include this possibility.

Also, someone may have actually requested the DQ just before the challenge ended and the DQ request is still sitting in the site council queue processing. I think DQ submissions after the challenge has ended are done via a ticket.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/06/2011 01:56:40 PM · #9

Originally posted by lawrysimm:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Has anyone else here been sent a validation request after the challenge is over and when you're not in the top five? The rules don't seem to include this possibility.

Also, someone may have actually requested the DQ just before the challenge ended and the DQ request is still sitting in the site council queue processing. I think DQ submissions after the challenge has ended are done via a ticket.

I guess it really doesn't matter when or how someone pulls the request (except that post challenge the photographer is no longer anonymous) but how long can it be before SC asks the poster for proof? If you can find where it says 7 days that would be helpful.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

03/06/2011 02:07:07 PM · #10

There's no established DPC Rule limiting the time frame, or a default statute of limitations that I know of. I know we've requested them quite long after a challenge ends if there is a good enough reason. Sometimes someone who wasn't a voter (or an SC) will see something "suspicious" after the end of a challenge. However, unless you are suspected of a "pattern" of infraction from a "current image", I'd be surprised to see us ask for an original after a month or two.

Still, while we'd use common sense, until there's an explicit rule limiting the time you must keep them, you would be required to keep originals indefinitely. And really, I would recommend keeping backups of originals INDEFINITELY for reasons beyond DPC. You don't have to keep them online. I backup every shoot to a DVD as a matter of principal. Then you won't worry about deleting originals off your hard drive--you can always go back to your DVD (at least for its lifetime)

see

Canon PowerShot S95

03/06/2011 02:15:38 PM · #11

A month or two, your kidding; right. I guess it's time to move on.

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

03/06/2011 02:21:28 PM · #12

Originally posted by nshapiro:

a "pattern" of infraction from a "current image"

Would you mind explaining that?

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

03/06/2011 02:37:10 PM · #13

i've had ribbon winner dq'd well after it sat for over a week on the front page, it came out of no where, i thought i was in the clear and then i got the notice. not sure what took them so long to validate. My current ribbon winner still has yet to be validated. i have no reason to think it wont be, but im not sure what takes so long.

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/06/2011 02:53:47 PM · #14

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by nshapiro:
a "pattern" of infraction from a "current image"

Would you mind explaining that?

An example might be a case where someone submits a couple entries in a row where the shots were proven to have been taken outside the date range. In a case like that, we might ask a person to submit proofs of older entries in case they had been submitting old material all along.

Or perhaps someone got disqualified a few times in a row for cloning things in Basic editing, and continued to do so when it was obvious that they knew they were violating the rule. In a case like that, it's reasonable to suspect that maybe they had done it with even earlier entries, so we could ask them to send proof for those.

These sorts of things are very rare, but certainly possible. If we have a good reason to suspect that someone's entries had slipped through the cracks illegally in prior months, it's only fair to everyone else that we investigate them.

Message edited by author 2011-03-06 14:55:30.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

03/06/2011 03:24:21 PM · #15

I would just add that we need to keep in mind that this is the process that keeps the competition fair. So while it might seem like a pain to keep originals, it's a very small price to pay for the fairness we enjoy here. In fact, I can probably still come up with an original for almost all my entries, going back to 2003. Heck, once the file is saved, it's additional work to delete it. Why would I?
If we did not operate under the assumption that we could be asked for a proof file at any time, even after the completion of the challenge and outside of the top 5, there would be far more opportunity for "slipping one through."

03/06/2011 03:29:48 PM · #16

Originally posted by alanfreed:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by nshapiro:
a "pattern" of infraction from a "current image"

Would you mind explaining that?

An example might be a case where someone submits a couple entries in a row where the shots were proven to have been taken outside the date range. In a case like that, we might ask a person to submit proofs of older entries in case they had been submitting old material all along.

Or perhaps someone got disqualified a few times in a row for cloning things in Basic editing, and continued to do so when it was obvious that they knew they were violating the rule. In a case like that, it's reasonable to suspect that maybe they had done it with even earlier entries, so we could ask them to send proof for those.

These sorts of things are very rare, but certainly possible. If we have a good reason to suspect that someone's entries had slipped through the cracks illegally in prior months, it's only fair to everyone else that we investigate them.

thanks for the explanation.

bvy

Sigma DP1x

03/06/2011 03:30:41 PM · #17

Originally posted by alans_world:

A month or two, your kidding; right. I guess it's time to move on.

Seems fair to me. Why would this trouble you?

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

03/06/2011 03:43:25 PM · #18

So if we are truly expected we keep all originals indefinitely why is that not stated in the rules? Seriously, and maybe naive of me, I thought that once a challenge was over (except for the top 5 scoring entries - or maybe top 10 in case one or more of the top 5 didn't make it through validation) there wouldn't be any reason to ask for proof.

Message edited by author 2011-03-06 15:46:37.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

03/06/2011 03:51:31 PM · #19

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

So if we are truly expected we keep all originals indefinitely why is that not stated in the rules? ...

It's not expected. In fact, it is expected that at some point an original may have been disposed of. But should the SC become aware of someone who is repeatedly slipping illegal edits through, or submitting out-of-date material, they need to be able to ask for a proof file.
It might be fair to ask, "well, then why not have a set statute of limitations, let us know exactly how long we have to keep those files?" In fact, *not* having a set time period works more to the advantage of fairness, since if the SC discovers a repeat offender, they are free to DQ post-hoc. The threat of this is a substantial discouragement to cheating.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

03/06/2011 03:56:25 PM · #20

Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
So if we are truly expected we keep all originals indefinitely why is that not stated in the rules? ...

It's not expected. In fact, it is expected that at some point an original may have been disposed of. But should the SC become aware of someone who is repeatedly slipping illegal edits through, or submitting out-of-date material, they need to be able to ask for a proof file.
It might be fair to ask, "well, then why not have a set statute of limitations, let us know exactly how long we have to keep those files?" In fact, *not* having a set time period works more to the advantage of fairness, since if the SC discovers a repeat offender, they are free to DQ post-hoc. The threat of this is a substantial discouragement to cheating.

That is sound thinking, I guess.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

03/06/2011 03:59:02 PM · #21

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

It says "You Must":

"retain your original, unedited file(s) (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide them to the Site Council along with a description of your setup and list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request. This notice will be sent, with instructions, to your listed email address, and will also appear on the left side of your DPChallenge home page when you are logged in. Files that have been saved or altered with any editing or transfer software are NOT originals. DNG files are not considered originals unless recorded in that format by the camera."

As you can see, no time frame is given. What made you think it was only during the challenge?

Poll: Do others think that too? [Asked in earnest, not meant to "isolate" Penny]

Edit: I realize my post was worded poorly...clarified...

Message edited by author 2011-03-06 16:24:19.

hahn23

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

03/06/2011 04:02:56 PM · #22

Validation requests are a strong drawing card for participation at DPC. (at least for me) They create a level playing field. Our skills as photographers increase when we have to lean on image capture skills and techniques, rather than predominantly software post-processing. Certainly, a balance of techniques is important. But, knowing that DPC's various sets of rules will be enforced allows everyone to compete fairly. I've never minded the validation process. I've had my share of validations over 410 challenge entries. Only about half were for top 5 finishes. I never knew WHY the other validations were requested... neither at the time of the notice, nor after the process produced a validation. At one point, I assumed some validations were requested on a random basis. Evidently, that is not correct. Suspicion of violation is the cause, as stated above. Nothing wrong with that! No one should fear a validation request, unless they have stepped over the line. And, if inadvertently breaking a rule, that's how we learn. A DQ is not the end of the world.

It might be a good idea to randomly select a few images from each challenge to go through the validation process. While that sounds like more work for the SC, it might actually promulgate more uniform rule compliance.

eta: I routinely keep my original files. Not because of DPC, but because it's good management. Who knows when new and improved software will come along to allow better processing. (happens all the time) I think I could dig out of my files all of the originals for all my challenge entries.

Message edited by author 2011-03-06 16:06:57.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/06/2011 04:11:42 PM · #23

Originally posted by hahn23:

I routinely keep my original files. Not because of DPC, but because it's good management. Who knows when new and improved software will come along to allow better processing. (happens all the time) I think I could dig out of my files all of the originals for all my challenge entries.

Ditto. I know for a fact I could dig up all MINE. And it has nothing to do with DPC.

R.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

03/06/2011 04:17:42 PM · #24

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by hahn23:
I routinely keep my original files. Not because of DPC, but because it's good management. Who knows when new and improved software will come along to allow better processing. (happens all the time) I think I could dig out of my files all of the originals for all my challenge entries.

Ditto. I know for a fact I could dig up all MINE. And it has nothing to do with DPC.

R.

I could probably get almost all of my originals for at least the past 3 years, if not 5 or 7 with enough digging. And, likewise, it has nothing to do with dpc. In fact, we could probably do a special episode of "hoarders" for people like me -- those that throw nothing electronic away. :P :P :P