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02/24/2011 06:43:51 AM · #1326 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
No-one seems to disagree that most religions are made up by people.
Many or even most religions have god(s), holy men, swathes of followers, documented ancient history, miracles, holy artefacts, religious ceremonies, highly persuasive personal accounts, prayer, internally coherent theories... etc. And we appear to agree that these are all made up by people for rational reasons - but we disagree on the possible exception of one religion from all these others.
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
I presume silence means "nothing" objective, just a gut feeling.
And I would argue that it is fair to evaluate the validity of this subjective response in the context of objective evidence for the propensity of humans to make up gods/religions.
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02/24/2011 08:49:13 AM · #1327 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I presume that I wasn't the cause of the upset. No-one seems to disagree that most religions are made up by people.
Many or even most religions have god(s), holy men, swathes of followers, documented ancient history, miracles, holy artifacts, religious ceremonies, highly persuasive personal accounts, prayer, internally coherent theories... etc. And we appear to agree that these are all made up by people for rational reasons - but we disagree on the possible exception of one religion from all these others.
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
I disagree. There is a church that was made by God. That's the difference. Other religions don't have the fullness of God. They have many aspects of God, but not the full truth. |
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02/24/2011 10:03:23 AM · #1328 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by Matthew:
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
There is a church that was made by God. That's the difference. Other religions don't have the fullness of God. They have many aspects of God, but not the full truth. |
That doesn't answer the question. It's exactly what every other religion says about your church. |
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02/26/2011 06:22:17 PM · #1329 |
What's the point of being a Christian? - What's in it for you on a personal level?
I mean, if you support a political party, you get the benefits of having someone in power who's policies are in alignment with your views. If you support a football team, you have the fun and excitement from watching them play.
But seriously, all that hassle about following the rules of the Bible, going to mass, praying. What's the upshot? Is it all about getting into heaven? |
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02/26/2011 08:20:56 PM · #1330 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
There is a church that was made by God. That's the difference. Other religions don't have the fullness of God. They have many aspects of God, but not the full truth. |
This answer is exactly why people have trouble with organized religions......this is such an arrogant and self-serving thing to say. It is *not* an answer, and the reason those of us who have problems with it is because you can't prove that any more than some of the outrageous claims about, and in, the bible.
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02/26/2011 08:28:38 PM · #1331 |
Originally posted by JH:
What's the point of being a Christian? - What's in it for you on a personal level?
I mean, if you support a political party, you get the benefits of having someone in power who's policies are in alignment with your views. If you support a football team, you have the fun and excitement from watching them play.
But seriously, all that hassle about following the rules of the Bible, going to mass, praying. What's the upshot? Is it all about getting into heaven? |
Well, using your sports metaphor, belonging to a church is like being part of a team. You feel less alone, maybe? Just a thought. I don't belong to a church. But I was brought up in one.
R. |
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02/26/2011 08:48:34 PM · #1332 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, using your sports metaphor, belonging to a church is like being part of a team. You feel less alone, maybe?
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That is until your messiah bolts to Miami...
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02/26/2011 09:09:00 PM · #1333 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Well, using your sports metaphor, belonging to a church is like being part of a team. You feel less alone, maybe? Just a thought. I don't belong to a church. But I was brought up in one. |
There has to be more to it than that, surely? - If I want social interaction, I can think of a million other places I'd rather go than sitting in a church. Christians are always going on about suffering for their faith etc. so how can anyone actually enjoy being a Christian? Always worried that god won't be happy with you, and continuously defending your faith.
The only entertaining part is that some of the music and songs are good.
Oh... and the getting into heaven. That's a biggie. |
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02/27/2011 01:40:37 AM · #1334 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Matthew:
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
There is a church that was made by God. That's the difference. Other religions don't have the fullness of God. They have many aspects of God, but not the full truth. |
This answer is exactly why people have trouble with organized religions......this is such an arrogant and self-serving thing to say. It is *not* an answer, and the reason those of us who have problems with it is because you can't prove that any more than some of the outrageous claims about, and in, the bible. |
Nope, I've come to realize there isn't much you can prove in a forum. |
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02/27/2011 02:53:36 AM · #1335 |
Originally posted by JH:
What's the point of being a Christian? - What's in it for you on a personal level?
I mean, if you support a political party, you get the benefits of having someone in power who's policies are in alignment with your views. If you support a football team, you have the fun and excitement from watching them play.
But seriously, all that hassle about following the rules of the Bible, going to mass, praying. What's the upshot? Is it all about getting into heaven? |
Originally posted by JH:
There has to be more to it than that, surely? - If I want social interaction, I can think of a million other places I'd rather go than sitting in a church. Christians are always going on about suffering for their faith etc. so how can anyone actually enjoy being a Christian? Always worried that god won't be happy with you, and continuously defending your faith.
The only entertaining part is that some of the music and songs are good.
Oh... and the getting into heaven. That's a biggie. |
The point of being a Christian is having a relationship with Jesus Christ. The only thing that is "in it" for Christians is that relationship. Christianity isn't about getting things from God. In other words, one doesn't become a Christian in order to get something for themselves. Becoming a Christian is about realizing the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord, believing that truth, and living according to that truth. Going to church or becoming a member of a church does not make you a Christian. What makes you a Christian is believing and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. If you're a true Christian (not just a church goer) then the "upshot" is being in relationship with the Savior who loves you and who gave his life for you. When you are a true believer in Jesus Christ praying and going to church (and even giving money to the church) are not hassles, but joys. We go places with our friends, we spend time with our friends, we communicate with our friends, and we even sacrifice for our friends. When you love Jesus and you can call him "friend," you want to spend time with him, talk to him, and give of yourself for him. You don't really become a Christian to get into heaven. You become a Christian to spend eternity with Jesus, the lover of your soul. It just so happens that heaven is God's house. You don't live with your mom and dad because you want to stay in their house (unless you're 30 and unemployed). You live with your mom and dad because you love them and they love you, and you want to be with the ones that you love. The same is true with Christians. This is also why Christians are willing to suffer for their faith. You can go anywhere and suffer through anything because the one you love is there with you. For a true believer in Jesus Christ, there is more joy in suffering for Christ if that's what he's called you to do than there is in living a comfortable life if you know Christ wants you doing something else. Most missionaries/evangelists/pastors don't do what they do because that was their childhood dream. They do it because they can't live with the prospect of doing anything other than living to serve the one that they love. Finally, Christians don't live in fear that God won't be happy with them. Christians live in hope, confidently knowing that they are the adopted sons and daughters of the loving Father through their faith in Jesus Christ.
The catch is that none of the above makes any sense until you've experienced it all for yourself, and you can't experience it all for yourself until you are "saved by grace, through faith" as Martin Luther said. As long as you're on the outside looking in, Christianity is foolishness to you. But you can't just dip your toes in to see if the water is warm. Christianity is an all-or-nothing deal. You can't just become a "temporary" Christian with the intention of seeing what it's like only to back out later on. |
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02/27/2011 05:30:03 AM · #1336 |
Gee Johnny, what would you say to those of us that used to be on the inside who, after many years of indoctrination, finally realized that they wanted out of the club...are they wrong or was the club wrong.
Just asking.
Ray |
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02/27/2011 08:41:42 AM · #1337 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Gee Johnny, what would you say to those of us that used to be on the inside who, after many years of indoctrination, finally realized that they wanted out of the club...are they wrong or was the club wrong.
Just asking.
Ray |
Well, indeed. I personally know far more ex-christians than christians. My partner, for example, went to a catholic school and was taught by nuns. They were awful. Un-educated, spiteful and nasty and they put her off christianity for life. I've quite a few friends that have similar experiences. I also know a small handful of born again christian types who have gone that way in their 30s. Interestingly the one thing they seem to have in common is a troublesome upbringing. Child abuse and problems with drugs and alcohol etc. The church seems to have helped them for the time being and thats cool. |
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02/27/2011 09:04:52 AM · #1338 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
I merely want to know what distinguishes Judeo-Christianity from the made up religions. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
There is a church that was made by God. That's the difference. Other religions don't have the fullness of God. They have many aspects of God, but not the full truth. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
This answer is exactly why people have trouble with organized religions......this is such an arrogant and self-serving thing to say. It is *not* an answer, and the reason those of us who have problems with it is because you can't prove that any more than some of the outrageous claims about, and in, the bible. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Nope, I've come to realize there isn't much you can prove in a forum. |
Again, instead of something substantial, an evasive and useless answer. Fact is, there's no proof of your claim anywhere, on any level that's tangible. You having nothing to support your claim that your made up relighion ios any "righter" than the next guy. Yet you're both firmly convinced that your story is "The One True Way".
How can you justify your answer in such a manner other than hearsay and fables handed down through the ages?
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02/27/2011 11:39:09 AM · #1339 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Gee Johnny, what would you say to those of us that used to be on the inside who, after many years of indoctrination, finally realized that they wanted out of the club...are they wrong or was the club wrong.
Just asking.
Ray |
Being "indoctrinated" or being "in the church" does not make one a Christian. I would argue that you were never a true disciple of Jesus Christ. I know many, many people who left the faith thinking that they were Christians only to return to the faith many years later and realize that they never were actually saved the first time. Salvation is a work of God. We cannot undo a work of God by deciding we want out. Not to mention, if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
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02/27/2011 11:50:35 AM · #1340 |
| Well, that told you Ray. You were never a Christian in the first place. You weren't doing it right. |
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02/27/2011 11:55:53 AM · #1341 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Not to mention, if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
I'll pull a "Shannon" here and point out that this is a prime example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Using that kind of logic, you'll never "lose" an argument but you'll never convince anyone of anything.
R. |
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02/27/2011 12:33:29 PM · #1342 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
... Not to mention, if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
Well, unlike those who were true believers that the earth was flat, I have no fear in venturing out and seeing for myself.
Ray |
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02/27/2011 12:58:28 PM · #1343 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
Funny you would mention that... |
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02/27/2011 01:01:07 PM · #1344 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Salvation is a work of God. |
Well......if we take this as a given, then anything you or anyone else has to say about it is pretty much irrelevant. The relationship is between the individual and God......not somebody putting his spin on it from a book or a pulpit.
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02/27/2011 04:24:15 PM · #1345 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Well, that told you Ray. You were never a Christian in the first place. You weren't doing it right. |
This is a common misconception about Christianity. Christianity isn't about doing it right. Christianity is about what Jesus did, not about what we do.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
... Not to mention, if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
Well, unlike those who were true believers that the earth was flat, I have no fear in venturing out and seeing for myself.
Ray |
The need to "venture out" and see for yourself implies that you were not actually a true believer in Jesus Christ. Feeling the need to venture out implies some level of doubt or skepticism. You can't be a true believer and a true skeptic at the same time.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I'll pull a "Shannon" here and point out that this is a prime example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Using that kind of logic, you'll never "lose" an argument but you'll never convince anyone of anything.
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I disagree. See the above comment. A true believer is, by definition, a true believer. If you feel the need to venture out (i.e., have doubts) then by definition you cannot be a true believer. Doubt and disbelief are the opposite of belief. It's not a matter of "a true believer wouldn't do... such and such" but it's a matter of "a true believer wouldn't lack belief in the first place."
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
Funny you would mention that... |
Funny you should use Crossan as an example. There is a reason why Crossan is controversial. There is a reason why Crossan has spent his whole life dismantling Scripture. Once again, a true believer is a true believer. If you don't believe in God's word (like Crossan) then you're not a believer. By definition, if you doubt that what God's word says about Jesus is true, then you do not believe in the biblical Jesus. If you do not believe in the biblical Jesus, then you do not believe in Jesus. Any Jesus other than the biblical Jesus is a made up Jesus. This is exactly what Crossan has done. He removes the parts of the Bible that he doesn't like so that what he is left with is his own idea of who Jesus should have been. What one person thinks Jesus should have been is not who Jesus really was.
Consider this. I could take an old Chevy truck, rip it apart, restore it using parts that I like from Ford trucks, and then at the very end put a gold bow tie on the front and call it a Chevy. Um... not really. I could call the truck a hot rod, but not an authentic Chevy truck. In the same way, Crossan has ripped apart the Bible, retranslated it using parts that he likes, and then at the very end has put the name "Jesus" on it. Crossan doesn't believe in the authentic, biblical, and historical Jesus. He believes in some "hot rod," dreamed up version of Jesus.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Salvation is a work of God. |
Well......if we take this as a given, then anything you or anyone else has to say about it is pretty much irrelevant. The relationship is between the individual and God......not somebody putting his spin on it from a book or a pulpit. |
The relationship is between the individual and God. However, the Spirit that unites believers to Christ is the same Spirit that unites believers to other believers. One cannot have Christ without also having the body of Christ. They go together.
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02/27/2011 04:33:36 PM · #1346 |
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02/27/2011 04:36:34 PM · #1347 |
I think I finally understand your point of view Johnny...lemme see if I can summarize it.
"My mind is made up... don't confuse me with facts" :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2011-02-27 16:37:34. |
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02/27/2011 04:58:35 PM · #1348 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I think I finally understand your point of view Johnny...lemme see if I can summarize it.
"My mind is made up... don't confuse me with facts" :O)
Ray |
Regarding which point?
ETA: Actually, your comment goes along nicely with what we've been talking about. If my mind wasn't made up (i.e., if I had doubts) then I wouldn't be able to call myself a true believer.
I'm just trying to explain what the Bible says about being a Christian. One would think that the Bible would be the authority on that matter.
Message edited by author 2011-02-27 17:05:58. |
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02/27/2011 05:25:43 PM · #1349 |
Just for the sake of argument, I'd venture the thesis that the "truest believer" is one who has examined his beliefs critically and found them sufficient. Johnny's version of the True Believer, one who never questions, is, to my way of thinking, a simpleton. Something jesus assuredly was not, for HE questioned the established beliefs at length, did He not?
R. |
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02/27/2011 05:34:44 PM · #1350 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
if you were a true believer in Jesus Christ you wouldn't want to leave the faith. |
Funny you would mention that... |
Interesting read. I'll have to look more into Crossan.
We Christians shouldn't be afraid of truth. If God is the supreme truth, finding truth brings us closer to God.
Edit: Of course, they can always leave and come back.
God Bless Norma Jean Coon: A Prodigal Daughter
Message edited by author 2011-02-27 17:51:24. |
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