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02/23/2011 07:37:21 PM · #551 |
What are you trying to get at? - That 'religious people' are more understanding, more charitable, more sympathetic, and all-round morally better than 'secular' people?
There's either a superiority complex at work here, or you're trying to justify the existence of religion (personally I have no interest in hearing), or your agenda is finally coming to fruition.
Well done - It only took 550 posts. |
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02/23/2011 07:47:04 PM · #552 |
Originally posted by JH:
What are you trying to get at? - That 'religious people' are more understanding, more charitable, more sympathetic, and all-round morally better than 'secular' people?
There's either a superiority complex at work here, or you're trying to justify the existence of religion (personally I have no interest in hearing), or your agenda is finally coming to fruition.
Well done - It only took 550 posts. |
Read the posts JH. I brought it up because nobody (or at least somebody) considered that it was possible that you could delineate between "religious" people and "non-religious" people on some moral characteristic. I didn't bring it up for your reason at all. See post #509, #512 and Shannon's lunacy in post #515.
Message edited by author 2011-02-23 19:50:50. |
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02/23/2011 07:49:47 PM · #553 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We're all busy, and wouldn't it just support the assertion that there may be different moral frameworks at work? If you value generosity more because of your moral system, then you are more likely to actually seek out giving despite your busy life. |
No. Do the people of UPS give more toys than the people of Clem's because they have a different moral framework?
Message edited by author 2011-02-23 19:52:43. |
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02/23/2011 07:51:32 PM · #554 |
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02/23/2011 08:03:45 PM · #555 |
| As an isolated data point, when I had the vehicle to do so (Combined Federal Campaign) I donated to a number of charities every year. That vehicle is no longer available to me (change in employment) so I need to find a new way to directly support those organizations. |
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02/23/2011 08:06:48 PM · #556 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
As an isolated data point, when I had the vehicle to do so (Combined Federal Campaign) I donated to a number of charities every year. That vehicle is no longer available to me (change in employment) so I need to find a new way to directly support those organizations. |
Nobody is claiming that secular people don't give to charity. Just want to get that out there. I bet we have some great people on this very site. It's just that there appear to be differences when comparing large groups and their religiosity seems to be the most correlated factor. |
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02/23/2011 08:43:56 PM · #557 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions. |
That the bolded aspect of the data supports the the hypotheses that it is the association/community commitment aspect of the religious identification driving the phenomenon, not belief of itself.
Note that I don't doubt the general data - although I'm not sure that donations to the religious institutions of the believer should provide full credit (seems more like self-interested giving than charitable) and I'm a little skeptical about the "secular" giving that is credited to religious believers as I have not seen a real good breakdown of the actual benefactors of the charitable giving. For example, I could see donations by religious believers to the campaign against Prop 8 being considered "secular" because it is political, but the donations in that context would almost certainly be motivated by religious considerations.
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02/23/2011 08:51:47 PM · #558 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions. |
That the bolded aspect of the data supports the the hypotheses that it is the association/community commitment aspect of the religious identification driving the phenomenon, not belief of itself.
Note that I don't doubt the general data - although I'm not sure that donations to the religious institutions of the believer should provide full credit (seems more like self-interested giving than charitable) and I'm a little skeptical about the "secular" giving that is credited to religious believers as I have not seen a real good breakdown of the actual benefactors of the charitable giving. For example, I could see donations by religious believers to the campaign against Prop 8 being considered "secular" because it is political, but the donations in that context would almost certainly be motivated by religious considerations. |
But the bolded aspect supports the hypothesis that "god-believers" and "non-god-believers" differ and that the grounds aren't due to one particular flavor of god-belief. Perhaps you want to say the difference is "community commitment" rather than "generosity" (if that's more palatable to you). The fact remains that differences exist and that's all I set out to prove. |
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02/23/2011 08:52:51 PM · #559 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
It's just that there appear to be differences when comparing large groups and their religiosity seems to be the most correlated factor. |
Just like there's a correlation between large corporations and giving. The size of the company seems to be the most correlating factor, so clearly the folks at mega corporations must have a different moral framework than small businesses because their employees participate in more toy drives and fundraisers. It can't POSSIBLY be because the charities themselves solicit large groups of people to put calls for aid right in their faces. Let's also ignore the fact that tithes and offering plate donations benefitting only the church itself are included as "charitable" contributions, and that volunteer work among the religious tends to be overwhelmingly for internal church maintenance (82% in 1995). |
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02/23/2011 08:53:53 PM · #560 |
I think our conversation SP was coming to a natural close anyway around post #502 unless you had more you wanted to talk about.
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.)
Message edited by author 2011-02-23 20:55:06. |
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02/23/2011 08:58:27 PM · #561 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think our conversation SP was coming to a natural close anyway around post #502 unless you had more you wanted to talk about.
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.) |
Awww . . . Doc doesn't want to talk with me anymore.
But yeah, the Jazmin dilemma/"sin" discussion was winding down, but I would put the end more at about post #518, which includes the side-discussion with Bear and grants me the last word. ;) |
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02/23/2011 09:00:09 PM · #562 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think our conversation SP was coming to a natural close anyway around post #502 unless you had more you wanted to talk about.
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.) |
Awww . . . Doc doesn't want to talk with me anymore.
But yeah, the Jazmin dilemma/"sin" discussion was winding down, but I would put the end more at about post #518, which includes the side-discussion with Bear and grants me the last word. ;) |
So let it be written. So let it be done. |
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02/23/2011 09:15:30 PM · #563 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.) |
You think I didn't already know I'd be wasting my time in response to any of your posts? I'm just here to entertain Deb. ;-)
So Act 1 concludes with Doc singing "LALALALALA...." to the faulty logic of his claims, a small chorus line and exit stage left. Tune in next thread to see these rationalizations dressed in new costumes singing the same old songs. We'll have fresh contradiction juggling, contortionist acts, smoke and mirror shows, and a Texas Sharpshooter competition. Concessions will be non-existent and the plot sort of rambles, but hey... it's FREE!
Message edited by author 2011-02-23 21:28:53. |
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02/23/2011 09:17:48 PM · #564 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.) |
There's an 'ignore user' button in here? - Or you're just kind of... blocking him out using your mind? Turning the other cheek? |
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02/23/2011 09:34:32 PM · #565 |
.
Message edited by author 2011-02-24 01:00:20. |
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02/23/2011 09:44:45 PM · #566 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Just echoing a point that when there's a vehicle that is convenient, one tends to donate more. |
I've donated blood several times (at events held in a church basement) because the church is near my house and I happened to hear about it. With an O-neg blood type I'm ALL give. ;-) |
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02/23/2011 09:54:05 PM · #567 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Hey everybody! The sky is blue.
(Just wanna see who will argue with me no matter what I say... :)) |
...NOT here at present... right black. It is night though :O)
Ray |
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02/23/2011 09:57:35 PM · #568 |
| That's it Ray. You're on my list. |
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02/23/2011 10:03:35 PM · #569 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by scalvert:
It has absolutely nothing to do with their willingness to give. If a blood drive at the local Red Cross wasn't noted in a church service or bulletin, then those congregation members wouldn't be any more likely to go than anyone else in the community. |
Isn't that kind of missing the point? Isn't the REAL point that a congregation, collectively, is more charitable than the sum of its parts otherwise might be? Isn't that a valid argument FOR the persistence of organized religion (and, for that matter, organized United Way giving), that it provides a unifying force that helps focus its members' efforts in worthwhile directions?
R. |
Funny you should mention the United Way. I have been involved with the United Way since way back, even before it was called the United Way in this country and although I cannot provide firm statistics on it........I have noticed that people are more generous when times are tough... and one would think that the opposite would be true.
Ray |
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02/23/2011 10:38:46 PM · #570 |
Ask me why I don't donate blood.
Oh yeah, it's fundies saying I'm a disease-ridden sodomite unworthy of donating, lest I give everyone AIDS. It puts quite a damper on any charitable feelings I may have, when they've been rebuked for not being good enough, let me tell you.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Are the non-religious folks just not as aware of their neighbor's needs? |
What a surprise, people without a religious community don't know as much about their neighbors' needs, since they don't see them en mass on a weekly basis. Shocking, I know! Blame it on suburbia.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Read the posts JH. I brought it up because nobody (or at least somebody) considered that it was possible that you could delineate between "religious" people and "non-religious" people on some moral characteristic. I didn't bring it up for your reason at all. See post #509, #512 and Shannon's lunacy in post #515. |
This feels so very disingenuous to me. Nobody's saying that you can't draw distinctions. People are only saying that you can't pin a single moral system onto atheists as canonically 'atheist' because there isn't one... it simply doesn't exist. People in a church must buy into a particular system, the one held by the church itself. There is no equivalent for atheists. Nobody can tell anybody they can't be an atheist... if you don't believe in gods, you can't get kicked out of the club. There can be amoral atheist murderers, and pious charitable atheist goody-two-shoes. Atheist is a freakin' description, not a belief system.
Why is that so hard to get across?
People simply don't want to answer what they feel is a wrongheaded question and have been explaining this for page after page. Perhaps you should take a note from Mr. Bear and rephrase? I think he's repeatedly pointed out what you should be asking.
I mean come on... it's stupid to claim that you can't delineate between the kind of morality expressed by theists and atheists. I'm more than happy to: Within a single faith, religious peoples' moral systems are markedly more consistent (dogmatic) than atheists'. The discrepancy between the two groups is so great that it's basically impossible to ascribe 'a system' to the multitudinous worldviews held by atheists. There. Was that so hard?
P.S. I probably donate more in clothes and appliances to the needy than all of you combined donate to anything. Does that make me more charitable than you, or just a profligate spender with a high rate of turnover? |
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02/23/2011 11:27:55 PM · #571 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
... to the DPC community, I've donated several hundred dollars worth of memberships, three cameras, and funds for at least two others. :-) |
Me too. At least six memberships, plus I've shipped equipment as far as Japan to members in need. I've bought lots cool stuff for members in the Christmas threads (especially kids). Plus I have my personal favoutite charitable orgs I always support, every year. I'm kind of lucky, and I enjoy spreading the luck. I love helping people out. All without thinking of ulterior motives even!
Am I bragging? Yer fekkin right I am. How else to refute the superiority claims of some around here? |
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02/23/2011 11:29:33 PM · #572 |
| People never fail to disappoint. :-/ |
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02/24/2011 12:30:42 AM · #573 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
(I've got you on Ignore now Shannon. Just wanted to warn you so you didn't waste your time.) |
If only I had a penny for each time you've said that; I would be able to donate enough to the Square Pegs Round Holes Foundation and cure that disease of yours. :)
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02/24/2011 12:33:11 AM · #574 |
The switch is broken Richard. I keep trying to fix it.
Guys! I believe you! :) It's like you are all falling over yourselves to prove you give. It's sorta...endearing?
Message edited by author 2011-02-24 00:33:19. |
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02/24/2011 02:21:00 AM · #575 |
| I suspect statistical info on who gives will record the activity of non-Samaritans whose left hands inform on what their right hands are doing. |
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