how to deal with uninvited photographers.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

01/04/2011 08:21:09 PM · #201

Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Quality of post = g
Time to wait = t
Interim replies = r
Disappointment = d
Satisfaction = s
The DPC constant = x

t = x/r

g = (s/d) * (x/r)

t = ((g)/(s/d))

Now you're messing with my head - I had to check that equation made sense. Besides, the value of 'd' increases with time, as it becomes more likely the issue is resolved 'off-line' in a gentlemanly manner. We also seem to have lost the pirates, not to mention Byron's assorted relations.

Unless..... unless he's translating his reply from pirate-talk to English! That's it!

Shrug, he probably meant days when he said he was taking his time composing a longer response..

Either that or we've scared him off with our insanity... (how should he know we do this to ALL THE RANT THREADS... :) )....

ByronD

01/04/2011 09:55:28 PM · #202

Honestly, I agonized over whether to just let this all go, but I\'m concerned about my reputation and how I ended up looking here and I decided I needed to speak up and clarify some things. I first knew something was up when I got home from the weekend and I had a nice juicy piece of mail waiting for me, and later in the day a profanity laced tirade against me was posted to my website. I also saw a large spike in traffic to my website from all over the world (geez you guys are popular), so I knew this was spreading very widely. I was absolutely stunned by what was being said, so I want to just say my side and hopefully wind this whole awful thing down. As the threads progressed I began to realize that some of the things were simply results of misunderstandings, and hopefully others were just third party embellishments and the natural data corruption that we\'ve all experienced that comes from something being passed around a while.

A major thing that held me back from posting before now was that I didn\'t want this to get around and hurt the bride and groom, or affect the results of the pictures that they eventually receive. They are wonderful people and I am honored to have been invited to their special day. From what was said later and some private messages I\'m sure now my concerns were misplaced.

I\'m not really upset so much at the different people who have posted to this thread. Frankly, if I had read this thread about this over the top, arrogant, rude, unprofessional jerk who crashed a wedding I would have been sorely tempted to post a scathing response and trash his work also. To the people in this thread, I just ask that when you hear something that is too bizarre and outrageous to be true, please think and think again.

So in no particular order, I\'m going to address the many things that have been said about me and what happened, and answer as many questions people have posted to date as possible.

The title of the post implies I was \"uninvited\". It should be clear now that I was indeed invited (although I\'m not at all saying that gave me any right to step on anyone\'s shots!) And kaos has said that he remembered later that he had been told I would be there by the bride herself. I fully understand how things get crazy on the big day and I understand how it could have slipped his mind. I had been keeping in the loop as the bride had had other photographers who had bailed on her, and I had offered to take some candid shots strictly as a friend and for free only to help give her a little extra coverage. I had triple checked and made ABSOLUTELY SURE that it was fine with the bride that I was going to be there with some pro gear and I had made it very clear that I would be respectful of anyone she managed to find who would be the official photographer. But realize that as little as maybe a week before the wedding it wasn\'t even clear that she would have anyone, and I was actually getting nervous that I might be taking the only photos she would have of her wedding day.

I did introduce myself to the hired photographer and say I was going to be taking some candids for the bride, although others with me had a clearer recollection of this conversation than I did. It was roughly around the time he asked if I was the minister, but not immediately after. I honestly meant to say something to the effect that I would respect his position as the hired photographer, but I can\'t recall clearly exactly how that came out. It does seem in hindsight that things might have started to go off track around here, although it was only after the wedding that I would realize how badly.

I never arrogantly said that I was a \"Pro\" photographer. I just don\'t run around doing that. Also, I don\'t and have never claimed to be a wedding photographer. I generally avoid them like the plague. The only exceptions I make are for close friends and family, but even then I try hard to get them to hire a good photographer with that particular expertise, because I highly respect good wedding photographers. So for everyone trashing my wedding galleries, don\'t be ridiculous. Of course they are minimal and of course they are not as good as someone who has been doing that for years! I never claimed otherwise. If you want to see a better representation of the kind of photography I do, click on the \"Favorites\" link.

As far as the white vignettes in that gallery, that was the first time I had done them and they seemed to me to enhance some of the lighter toned images. But like I said, I\'m not an experienced wedding photographer, and the general consensus here seems to be that they are dated. I can certainly learn from that and tone it down.

I never said \"no professional would ever bother with cables.\" And I never heard them say the things to me about pros having a backup plan, and that he wouldn\'t need them if I wasn\'t flashing his strobes. I simply don\'t think this entire conversation ever occurred. And I can\'t imagine myself saying something so dumb. Of course it is good to have backups and of course cables are fine! A spare sync cord saved my bacon once at a shoot. I didn\'t even know he was having radio trigger troubles. If I had, I\'m the kind of guy who would have offered spare or even my primary equipment to help out the hired photographer in a real pinch. The bride and groom and making what they end up with the very best is where the focus should always be. I always intended us both shooting there to be complimentary, never adversarial or even really overlapping.

I NEVER offered to \"apprentice\" him \"when he is ready\". I simply did not ever say this! The only time I even used that word was when we were talking in the lobby about wedding photography, and I said that *I* would want to apprentice with an experienced wedding photographer before taking on the full responsibility for someone\'s special day. I was talking about me and my comfort level not being there for that. I can\'t fathom how this could possibly have gotten turned around to the other thing, because it\'s the exact opposite. I remember the lobby was very loud, and maybe it was simply misheard.

As far as giving him the biz card, I believe that was in the same conversation where he asked to see the photos when I was done, and when he mentioned that he had some photos from a local \"Zombie Walk\" I was very interested and mentioned to him that I had enjoyed taking some as well he might like to see. There was no arrogance or condescension in my mind towards him at all. I remember him saying something to the effect that it is always good to see what other photographers come up with, and I fully agree with and respect that sentiment. I passed out no other cards there, and the only time a candid subject asked about seeing the photos I just told them to stay in touch with the bride. I wasn\'t there to network, or to poach.

When I first saw that he said I was jumping in and posing the B&G during his formal shots I admit I was furious at the accusation. There\'s not a photographer here who would not want to kick someone in the ***** who did something like that to them. However, later from his post #98 about the shot in front of the marquee it suddenly clicked where the misunderstanding came from. So let me explain that part.

First of all, the formals were at the end of the ceremony, and I didn\'t take one single shot of the formals. I absolutely deferred to him, and that umbrella that has caused so much controversy here was already put away long before then. I fully recognized that he was the hired photographer and I would never have messed with them! I didn\'t shoot over his shoulder, nothing. That was what he was hired to do, he had a double strobe area setup to do it well and that wasn\'t why I was there anyways.

The \"interfering with formals\" misunderstanding was apparently hours earlier, in front of the theater. The only posed bride and groom couple shot I took the whole wedding was at the very beginning of the night, when they were milling about not doing anything else and I knew I wouldn\'t be interfering with anything. The marquee shot was one specific shot that I had envisioned and had proposed to the bride, and she was very enthusiastic about doing it. We were planning this shot well before, possibly before the official photographer was even hired. It was a shot of the B&G in front of the theater with the marquee behind them that had been changed to announce their wedding. So I got my settings set up with a test subject, moved my truck with which I had reserved the area directly in front of the theater, then I asked someone to go get the B&G. I even sent someone to tell the hired photographers to come too, as I wanted them to have a chance to also get some shots there. I knew this was important to the bride, and I wanted as many chances as possible for it to come out well for them. The B&G came out, closely followed by kaos and his assistant. It was freezing out there, so I quickly posed them up, and took the shots we had planned. It was a wide angle, low to the ground looking up at them with the marquee behind them, so yes, I was directly in front of them and yes, this was the one time the whole night I was directing the couple. I noticed that the other photographers were shooting over my shoulder, which was fine with me, frankly, because I had been the one who had made sure that they knew a photo op was going to be out there. The whole thing probably only took 3-4 minutes before we finished and the B&G dashed back inside. After reading post #98, I now see how this was misunderstood. In my mind this was my one preplanned shot with the B&G and I needed to step up decisively and get the shot before they froze to death, and anything the hired photographer got after that or else over my shoulder was great too. It would have been absolutely fine with me if he had asked them to stay for a minute longer after I stepped away. In his mind there was this jerk jumping in front of him and posing up his couple. I need to remember that darn communication thing again, I guess :(

I only recall one single time when I was approached by kaos or his assistant about there being a problem. It was in the lobby and he came up to me and said the flash was interfering with his ambient light shots there. I sincerely apologized on the spot, and immediately left after our conversation and went into a completely different room, the theater room with a closed door. I took just a handful of candids more in there, when I was certain the work kaos was doing in the lobby would not be affected, then I put the umbrella away for the night. If I missed any other cues about there being a problem before that I apologize.

It was incorrectly stated at some point that I was found on Craigslist. I\'m not, whatever people might have implied from that. I also had absolutely no evil agenda being there. I wasn\'t trying to impress anyone, or feed my stratospheric ego (it usually spends time in the basement, although sometimes it inhabits the first floor), or prove my manhood, or any of the other bizarre things people have speculated about here. People, there\'s simply nothing there, so please don\'t post silly conjectures of that sort, it\'s unseemly, and only clouds the waters.

My friend Robert was slightly incorrect about me being asked to shoot the wedding for free and declining. There was some odd speculation here about that being a motive for my alleged behavior in some way. As I said, as a favor to a friend I *offered* to get SOME shots of a wedding that I had ALREADY been invited to as a guest, especially when it began to look like they might be the only ones the bride would end up with due to previous photographers bailing out on them. I never made an offer, nor was I undercut. I always intended to just get a few dozen good candids plus the marquee shot and give them for free as my gift to the B&G. The B&G were on a tight budget right now in this economy, and I commend kaos for being available at the last minute and for making things work within their budget. Going back to the speculation about my motives, kaos and I are not competitors. He\'s no threat to me, and I\'m no threat in any way to him. Heck, we\'re in different states. That dynamic was absolutely not there in me, so we can please put that one to rest.

One other thing has been bothering me a great deal. Can everyone please all back off of the MoH, as kaos has requested as well? She is a wonderful person and a good friend, and she certainly doesn\'t deserve any of the bizarre and even gutter speculation she has been subjected to. She is also a very close friend of the B&G, having actually been the one who introduced them to each other. And a minor meaningless clarification, the wedding did not (at the brides request) have an actual MoH, but I suppose the label is as good as any at this point.

Some people have asked about equipment. Simms, you are right. The stick flash was a Canon 580EX2 on a PocketWizard Flex TT5 receiver, and there was the little PW TT1 transmitter mounted on the camera hot shoe. The umbrella was a \"Zumbrella\", which folds up in a second, and shortens up instantly as well, which is useful for moving around. It really does work well. As mentioned by kaos, the theater was difficult, a mix of black and mint green walls, not very conducive to good skin tones when bouncing. Aside from the propriety of it, the umbrella close in was really a good tool for the job, with a fairly nice, soft three dimensional light effect. And by the way, your bridge picture you posted earlier was gorgeous.

The camera I used was a Canon 1DMk3, the lenses were 16-35 (marquee wide shots), 100mm f2.8 (a small handful of cake, flower and rings pics) and a 24-70 (people candids). This camera has been a good tool. And that brings up something I feel very much needs to be said. That\'s all it is. A tool. I want to be clear about my attitude. I don\'t think less of anyone for the tools they use. I don\'t do lens envy at all, because I know how important it is to develop a creative side or the technical skill is irrelevant.

Saying that someone is going to take better pictures because they have a costlier camera is as stupid as saying a chef is going to make a better meal because of the cost of the pots that they use.

I love photography. I absolutely love what I do. I\'m sure that most people here feel the same way or they wouldn\'t hang around (except maybe to see what Strikeslip is going to post next ;) I\'m under no illusions about my current skill level. But I also know I want to get better. If I look at my pictures from last year and I don\'t feel that this years are better, something is wrong. This means that I like to learn from other photographers.

And I like to help. And that may have been how we started getting off on the wrong foot. I can look back and see how my willingness to help and throw out some ideas could have been construed in a completely different manner to a busy hired photographer. The location provided some unique challenges. For instance, the ceremony was literally in front of a movie theater screen, without curtains. This white screen blasted back any flash pointed at it, just as it is supposed to do. In spending a few minutes up there trying to help kaos solve this problem by giving suggestions, he got the feeling I was looking down at him and that I was a know-it-all, and I ended up raising his stress level, and I unfortunately missed the cues that this was happening. This seems to have been the result, but it was absolutely never my intent, and I\'ve learned a lesson here. After that was the marquee thing, and it had definitely gone to dogs by then, with me blissfully ignorant.

So kaos has already sincerely apologized, and that is all good. I have noticed and appreciate that he specifically refrained from trashing my work. I would never trash his work either, actually. And here\'s where I want to say honestly that not once that night did I think badly of him or his work because of his equipment. I\'ve given my philosophy on equipment above. Nor his work ethic. He worked hard there as far as I could tell. I\'ve heard the words snide, condescending, sneering, felt more experience because of my age, etc. I can honestly say I never looked down on him once that night or had any of those feelings of superiority these words imply. And we can switch ages any time he feels like it, I wouldn\'t mind at all ;) I saw him work a little as I was standing around and I remember getting a good vibe that he knew his gear and how to use it. This actually made me relax a little, as I felt good that the B&G\'s pictures were in good hands. And finally, I specifically remember telling him that I had heard the bride calling his shots \"creative\" and that was the primary thing that had attracted her to his work for her wedding. I would have wanted to hear something good like that about myself, so I figured he would also.

So there you have it folks. Just another typical wedding, complete with love and drama. And I really do want to put this behind me now.

One last thing, kaos, is it ok with you if take down the photo of the MoH and umbrella from your flickr? It seems unnecessary now, and I think we both want her out of this whole thing.

Finally, in the interest of putting all the cards on the table, I\'ve included the email and site posting below. I\'m specifically leaving out the names. Hopefully the person who emailed me the first one will see this post and get her questions answered. But the nastier one I\'m not as charitable about, I have to admit. To put some of my friend Robert\'s comments in perspective, just realize that he saw the nasty message below before he posted here. Of course he had no intention of maligning the innocent.
-----------
Sir,

I would be exceptionally interested to hear your rationale behind your recent behaviour at a wedding where you attended as a guest. You not only geared up for the occasion but tried to take over the work of the photographer who was actually being paid to shoot the wedding.

Yes, the person in question made it clear that he did have some technical malfunctions. But from the sounds of it, your attitude towards him was worse than condescending, and you even offered him an apprenticeship.

So, care to explain your highly unprofessional level of behaviour, in all senses of the word? Especially as you dare to pass yourself off as a professional, complete with a SmugMug-hosted account and a \'Help me buy my next lens\' fund hotlink on your home page?

Regards,
xxxxx
------------
Hi Byron you little turd!!!
I heard you was acting a complete !+$%ing tool recently at a wedding where there was another photographer and you muscled in acting like the big pro (just cause you are !+$%ing the Maid of Honor) - well, I have looked at your work and I must say its !+$%ing appalling - especially your wedding stuff - I mean, white vignettes are so 1980s. In future, if you want to be a professional then act professional and keep your mouth shut - if you are going to butt in then expect people to look at your work - well I am looking and to be honest its !+$%ing useless.
You can read how much people admire your work by visiting this link

[The link to this thread]

I am happy to take you on as an apprentice if you like, I blow your mind with my wedding photography skills.

Seeya idiot!!
-------------

scarbrd

Leica M10

01/04/2011 10:20:28 PM · #203

Now THAT'S a forum post!

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/04/2011 10:49:02 PM · #204

Wow. That oughtta' put paid to all this...

R.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/04/2011 10:51:10 PM · #205

Byron, thanks for the post, I'm really hoping you might stick around and join us for a challenge or two... I think you'd be a marvelous addition to the circus around here.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/05/2011 12:27:59 AM · #206

Originally posted by ByronD:

I NEVER offered to \"apprentice\" him \"when he is ready\". I simply did not ever say this! The only time I even used that word was when we were talking in the lobby about wedding photography, and I said that *I* would want to apprentice with an experienced wedding photographer before taking on the full responsibility for someone\'s special day. I was talking about me and my comfort level not being there for that. I can\'t fathom how this could possibly have gotten turned around to the other thing, because it\'s the exact opposite. I remember the lobby was very loud, and maybe it was simply misheard.

Under those conditions, I can completely envision what you said as being heard or construed as "If I were you I would ..." which essentially reverses the meaning.

Thanks for the extensive post, and sorry for the inappropriate email. If you get anything else like that from here, please submit a Ticket (under the Help menu) with the details.

I second the invitation to stick around and ~~win a few ribbons~~ enter a few challenges -- this is actually a pretty fun and helpful group most of the time ...

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
...
Anyone remember the "Bucket of Peas" incident of '06?...

So you're saying this thread will not die until it has either run its course of 16 pages, or RayEthier deals a final, thread-killing post?

AND... there must be a challenge in honor of the thread.

Hmmm ... I don't think we've ever run a challenge for Wedding Photography, have we?

Sigma 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 DL Aspherical IF Hyperzoom for Canon

01/05/2011 12:31:22 AM · #207

Originally posted by GeneralE:

...
Hmmm ... I don't think we've ever run a challenge for Wedding Photography, have we?

We are often construed as crazy... However, it turns out that we are not that crazy....

One can only imagine the ensuing chaos... I think the term "epic" might even become appropriate...

punk_kaos

Canon EOS-1Ds

01/05/2011 12:40:15 AM · #208

Hey Byron, thanks for taking the time to reply, and you've actually cleared up one of my biggest issues with that evening with your reply.
Let me explain: The scene infront of the marque is exactly what I was referring to. The bride had specifically stressed to me that that was the one
shot that we really needed to get, and I had mentioned to her around 15 minutes before that that it would be a good time to do it. When the person came to find
me (I forget who it actually was, but it may have been the MoH) they said something to the effect that "The bride and groom are ready to shoot the marque shots".

Obviously since I had been asked to take the shots by the bride, I assumed that SHE had sent the person to get me. When I came out, I found you already out there shooting. I totally understand why you were moving quick, it was 20 something degrees out there, and the bride was in a wedding dress! It just seemed like it was snap-snap-snap and shuffle them back in, and I really didn't get a good shot of them with the marque.

Seeing as it was *YOU* that took them out there and sent someone back to grab me, it makes much more sense why it went that way.

ByronD

01/05/2011 01:33:44 AM · #209

Wow. I did not know that side of it at all. Didn't know she had even talked to you about doing it (which was just fine, by the way) or that you were preparing to do it by coincidence at the same time as me. That certainly explains a lot. Maybe someday we'll laugh about this.

With all the drama, maybe all weddings should be at movie theaters. Weren't they even still selling popcorn when we first got there?

And thanks for the invites, General and cory.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/05/2011 01:43:48 AM · #210

Originally posted by ByronD:

Of course, please take us up on it. (If this hadn't been moved to Rant, there'd be many more invites...)

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

01/05/2011 02:07:56 AM · #211

I thought that I was done with this thread, but now that everyone has had a say, I can see that I was probably wrong by thinking that we would likely not all end up being friendly.
I apologize for firing a shot at you Byron,

, while everyone was airing out their dirty underwear,

. Now I see through my fisheye lens,

that you are actually a pretty nice guy.
Maybe we could all lighten up some about this whole seriousness about wedding photos,

, and just jump in

here at DPC, and sit back and enjoy the ride

instead of going ballistic

. Let's all just let this thread sort of run out of gas

. But first, let's throw a good party

, share a couple of cool ones

and a few grins

and just have a big time

Welcome to DPC

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

01/05/2011 02:12:48 AM · #212

Yes, by all means, Byron, come spend some time with us. We're a lot of fun, for a pack of rabid dogs...

R.

smardaz

01/05/2011 02:43:06 AM · #213

Originally posted by ByronD:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Yes, by all means, Byron, come spend some time with us. We're a lot of fun, for a pack of rabid dogs...

R.

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Byron, thanks for the post, I'm really hoping you might stick around and join us for a challenge or two... I think you'd be a marvelous addition to the circus around here.

I feel a bro-hug coming on!

01/05/2011 02:43:59 AM · #214

Originally posted by smardaz:

Originally posted by ByronD:
Wow. I did not know that side of it at all. Didn't know she had even talked to you about doing it (which was just fine, by the way) or that you were preparing to do it by coincidence at the same time as me. That certainly explains a lot. Maybe someday we'll laugh about this.

With all the drama, maybe all weddings should be at movie theaters. Weren't they even still selling popcorn when we first got there?

And thanks for the invites, General and cory.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Yes, by all means, Byron, come spend some time with us. We're a lot of fun, for a pack of rabid dogs...

R.

Originally posted by coryboehne:
Byron, thanks for the post, I'm really hoping you might stick around and join us for a challenge or two... I think you'd be a marvelous addition to the circus around here.

I feel a bro-hug coming on!

o_0