?s about Xtianity but were afraid to ask

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

11/12/2010 12:56:56 AM · #701

Oh geez. It's Mithras, popping his head up again like a whack-a-mole. :(

Apple iPhone 5

11/12/2010 05:06:09 AM · #702

Originally posted by Nullix:

The scientist commented that this was impossible and must be a miracle.

Then she wasn't a real scientist.

A real scientist would have investigated the underlying reasons for the cancer's remission, and possibly made some breakthrough discoveries in the process.

A real scientist wouldn't throw their hands in the air and announce 'a miracle' just because they can't immediately find the answers.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

11/12/2010 05:20:57 AM · #703

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
As an aside, you never did address the question raised above regarding sainthood... we are waiting.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
I was always under the impression that the independent studies you allude to were done exclusively by in-house experts.

I'm trying to find something online, but I can't at the moment. I remember reading about one of the latest recognized saint's miracle. It was done through a blind study. I remember it being about a woman scientist who specialized in research of a deadly cancer. She was commissioned to review some tissue samples of someone with this cancer. In her studies, she found that the cancer was gone after about 6 months. The scientist commented that this was impossible and must be a miracle. Turns out, the people who commissioned the study was the Vatican and they were verifying a miracle.

I wish I can find this article.

Are you suggesting that things that seem impossible are deemed to be miracle by the church. What about instances where mothers have lifted a car to save their child, or a baby falling 7 floors and surviving...are those miracles too, and that these people will become saints?

/quote]
I did find the saint you referenced earlier Mary McKillop You can easily lookup her miracles.[/quote]

My interest rested in the fact that she was at one point "excommunicated", funny how the church changed its mind eh?

Originally posted by RayEthier:

It might also be of interest to note that a great portion of the saints never had to meet the more stringent requirements that now exist, were often deemed saints almost immediately after their death.

Yes, these were Martyrs who died for the faith. By the 4th century, there were people who confessed their faith not by dying, but by word and life. Any web search will show you the process. [/quote]

Actually NO... not all of these were martyrs... you might want to read up on this a bit more.

Ray

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

11/12/2010 08:13:39 AM · #704

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Oh geez. It's Mithras, popping his head up again like a whack-a-mole. :(

Please just ignore the person behind the curtain. Sometimes she can't help herself.

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/12/2010 08:56:32 AM · #705

Originally posted by RayEthier:

What about instances where mothers have lifted a car to save their child, or a baby falling 7 floors and surviving...are those miracles too, and that these people will become saints?

Wow, there's a process. It's not like every time a bell rings an angle get's their wings. That's just crazy.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

My interest rested in the fact that she was at one point "excommunicated", funny how the church changed its mind eh?

Not that funny.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Actually NO... not all of these were martyrs... you might want to read up on this a bit more.

So you're just going sit back and nitpick? Sorry, I don't play that game.

11/12/2010 08:19:40 PM · #706

Originally posted by Nullix:

[quote=RayEthier]What about instances where mothers have lifted a car to save their child, or a baby falling 7 floors and surviving...are those miracles too, and that these people will become saints?

Originally posted by Nullix:

Wow, there's a process. It's not like every time a bell rings an angle get's their wings. That's just crazy.[quote=Nullix]

...and exactly just how is this different than the miracles the church attributes to individuals who died a long time ago.

[quote=RayEthier]My interest rested in the fact that she was at one point "excommunicated", funny how the church changed its mind eh?

Originally posted by Nullix:

Not that funny.[quote=Nullix]

Obviously not considering that she was excommunicated for daring to expose a pedophile priest.

[quote=RayEthier]Actually NO... not all of these were martyrs... you might want to read up on this a bit more.

Originally posted by Nullix:

So you're just going sit back and nitpick? Sorry, I don't play that game.

Funny thing that... that is exactly the type of response I got from some of my learned teachers at the Jesuit College I attended many many years ago. Much simpler to simply dismiss a comment than to actually address the issue... but I can't say I am surprise.

Ray

Nullix

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

11/13/2010 08:44:20 PM · #707

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Actually NO... not all of these were martyrs... you might want to read up on this a bit more.

Originally posted by Nullix:

So you're just going sit back and nitpick? Sorry, I don't play that game.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Ah, then I'm not the only one who noticed. When everyone else has the same response with you, it might be valid. If you review your little spite, there isn't any issue to address. Just some ambiguous comment about, "not all of these were martyrs." Care to elaborate? Or are you just waiting for me to respond so you can nitpick some more?

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/13/2010 09:34:41 PM · #708

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Actually NO... not all of these were martyrs... you might want to read up on this a bit more.

Originally posted by Nullix:
So you're just going sit back and nitpick? Sorry, I don't play that game.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Funny thing that... that is exactly the type of response I got from some of my learned teachers at the Jesuit College I attended many many years ago. Much simpler to simply dismiss a comment than to actually address the issue... but I can't say I am surprise.

Ah, then I'm not the only one who noticed. When everyone else has the same response with you, it might be valid. If you review your little spite, there isn't any issue to address. Just some ambiguous comment about, "not all of these were martyrs." Care to elaborate? Or are you just waiting for me to respond so you can nitpick some more?

...and this of course is a format that holds true for the church right?

I do seem to recall that they had a major problem with some fella called Calileo and that it took them a rather long time to rectify the problem.

Ray

Message edited by author 2010-11-13 21:51:16.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

11/13/2010 10:13:34 PM · #709

Let's see, I'm trying to track this exchange here.

1. Nullix said the saints have to be vetted, the miracles verified, for sainthood to be conferred.

2. Ray said that may be true now, but bunches and bunches of saints were sanctified before the vetting process was instituted.

3. Nullix said yeah, those were the martyrs who died for the faith.

4. Ray said not all of them were.

5. Nullix says Ray's picking nits and demands more details.

So my question for Nullix is along the lines of, "Where are YOUR details? Why does Ray have to answer to a higher standard than you do? You're the one that made the blanket statement that started the exchange, and when called on it you made another blanket statement. Both of them were inaccurate, and neither of them was detailed."

R.

Flash

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

11/14/2010 02:45:22 PM · #710

Nullix - let it rest. Some of the posters here are nit pickers, have always been nit pickers, and will likely continue to be nit pickers. Rather than discuss the overall generall philosophy of a view, they prefer to focus in on a minute specific - apparently from what I gather - either because they don't want to discuss the broader more expansive view or because they are simply fault finders and this is their joy in life.

Your position as I read it was that saints are vetted and that multiple events must be attributed to them - thereby giving some credibility to the events themselves as occurring outside scientific explaination. Regardless of how the Church sanctified all of its historical saints - TODAY - it is not a simple process, and for anyone to imply that the sainthood process TODAY is tainted because of some less than stellar actions centuries ago - is bullsh!t.

Again - let it rest. You have your belief in miracles along with millions of other believers. That should be enough. Scoffers will always lie in wait to ambush like jackals in a pack.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/14/2010 03:39:56 PM · #711

Hey, I'm all in favor of miracles. I think they happen. I'm 100% pro-miracle. I just don't like it when people aren't playing on a level field. I don't think Nullix should be asking Ray to be any more specific than he himself is being. I think he'd have been better off saying to Ray "Yah, you're right, I was oversimplifying, but my main point still stands: the vetting of a saint in modern times is a rigorous process."

That's how debates are won, actually; not by sniping at your opponents.

R.

rooum

11/21/2010 06:53:28 AM · #712

Very good debate on whether religion is a force for good in todays Uk Guardian. Wasn't sure where to put this but i thought some people would be interested. This thread seemed as good a place as any. I imagine there is little point in starting a whole new thread around it.

11/21/2010 02:17:21 PM · #713

Interesting, but it came up short. The secularists relied on charicature and incorrect facts and the religious people were not educated enough or unwilling to challenge them. As an example, Christianity took four hundred years to develop its morality and once they decided the world wasn't ending borrowed all their best ideas from atheist greeks? Please. This leaves aside the much more obvious answer that they developed their own Jewish ideas (like reciprocity) which predated the greeks by a thousand years.

The secularists do not realize the shoulders they stand on. But that's my take.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

11/21/2010 03:20:37 PM · #714

Meanwhile back in imaginationland Mithra is awaken, but for just a moment, which in imaginationland is an eternity. Shortly thereafter he returns to slumber...

Message edited by author 2010-11-21 15:58:59.

11/21/2010 05:27:25 PM · #715

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... The secularists relied on charicature ...

Are those the times when they used to tie people up to a stake and roast em? :O)

Ray

rooum

11/21/2010 06:39:34 PM · #716

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Interesting, but it came up short. The secularists relied on charicature and incorrect facts and the religious people were not educated enough or unwilling to challenge them.

Yes, i'm sure that's the case. It's pretty shallow really. Still, i thought i'd post it up here for anyone that's interested. It's interesting to read these debates in the papers.

Message edited by author 2010-11-21 18:42:15.

11/21/2010 07:15:33 PM · #717

Yes, thanks Clive. It's always interesting to see what's being written as a new religion struggles to take its place at the table.@

rooum

11/21/2010 07:40:36 PM · #718

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Yes, thanks Clive. It's always interesting to see what's being written as a new religion struggles to take its place at the table.@

Well, such is the way of the world. I find it interesting. I'd say i'm some sort of animist, polytheist, tantrist, pantheist, kemetic, agnostic, hedonist, so i tend to leave all that Abrahamic stuff to the others. Best to keep it simple i feel. I think that when it come to God (Gods) it may be best to do your own thing. But thats just me.

Message edited by author 2010-11-21 19:41:30.

scalvert

11/21/2010 08:15:10 PM · #719

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The secularists relied on charicature and incorrect facts and the religious people were not educated enough or unwilling to challenge them.

Or, depending upon your point of view, the religious folks relied upon caricature and faulty reasoning while the secularists "were not educated enough or unwilling to challenge them" out of polite respect. As one basic example, the myth that morality arises from religion is readily falsified even without the clear evolutionary advantage for (and observations of) higher social animals. As children we learn right and wrong from our parents long before we read or attend Sunday school, and they in turn learned proper social norms from their parents. Raise humans without the oversight of parental figures and they won't know what is socially acceptable. It makes no significant difference whether the parents are religious or not (nor apparently even human), and virtue is not a reliable indicator of faith (or vice versa).

Religion appropriates the same common sense and parentally instilled values we already know (as it must to maintain credibility) and claims them retroactively as the authoritative decree of some supernatural entity. Yet even the believers who make this claim acknowledge the truth: they blame juvenile delinquency on the parents rather than the wrong religion or lack of faith. Do kids worry that their parents will be upset when they do something wrong or that they've angered a god? Do amnesia victims or people from highly secular states approve of stealing or murder? Cultural attitudes changes with our experiences and we pass those revised social mores down to our children, which is why younger generations accept other races in their schools and the right of women to vote as perfectly natural. Religious dogma resists such change, so it lags behind and is eventually reinterpreted or selectively ignored to make the new norms historically "right."

If religion has a place in morality, it's not as a source, but as examples that can be used to help teach existing social values. It a valuable role, to be sure, and really the same purpose served by Aesop's Fables, Shakespeare and countless other works of fiction.

Message edited by author 2010-11-21 20:17:27.

11/22/2010 11:25:14 AM · #720

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yes, thanks Clive. It's always interesting to see what's being written as a new religion struggles to take its place at the table.@

Well, such is the way of the world. I find it interesting. I'd say i'm some sort of animist, polytheist, tantrist, pantheist, kemetic, agnostic, hedonist, so i tend to leave all that Abrahamic stuff to the others. Best to keep it simple i feel. I think that when it come to God (Gods) it may be best to do your own thing. But thats just me.

So what was your takeaway? Do you think religion is a force of good in the world and why?

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

11/22/2010 01:53:07 PM · #721

Bertrand Russell on the existence of god.

Message edited by author 2010-11-22 17:03:15.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

11/22/2010 04:40:45 PM · #722

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Bertrand Russell on the existance of god.

He is also a beautiful writer. Elegant, incisive and concise prose.

//www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

11/22/2010 04:48:59 PM · #723

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by zeuszen:
Bertrand Russell on the existance of god.

He is also a beautiful writer. Elegant, incisive and concise prose.

//www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I will point out that his First Cause argument is a bit dated (having been given in 1927) as it was only a forming idea then that the universe had a "beginning". We've been over this many times, but I do have to point it out.

Otherwise, I am enjoying his essay because, unlike Rant, he is quite willing to lay out his argument in specifics rather than double negatives and generalities.

11/22/2010 05:05:40 PM · #724

Ok, I finished it and say that I could write an essay to counter every point that would make it reasonable to hold my position as much as his. Still, I commend him for writing out what he believes.

scalvert