| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/09/2010 08:47:35 PM · #676 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I heard about this ark when traveling in eastern Turkey in the early 80's. The thing has been up there for a long time, the legend of it was mentioned by Marco Polo, and has been visited enough to live as accepted fact locally. Why such a huge ship is that far up a mountain does defy expectations, but that it is there is hard to deny. |
The world does still have a few delicious mysteries when you hunt in the nooks and crannies.
Message edited by author 2010-11-09 20:47:43. |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 09:48:04 PM · #677 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
The thing has been up there for a long time, the legend of it was mentioned by Marco Polo, and has been visited enough to live as accepted fact locally. Why such a huge ship is that far up a mountain does defy expectations, but that it is there is hard to deny. |
Stories of aliens at Roswell and Nessie at Loch Ness are also claimed to be factual by many locals. It's good for business. This thing has not been determined to actually exist, let alone be a ship. Every archeologist ever associated with Noah's Ark Ministries (confirmation bias anyone?) has expressed extreme skepticism over the "discoveries," and the Noah's Ark story itself was clearly adapted from much earlier Sumerian, Babylonian and Greek myths:
"The Sumerian myth of Ziusudra tells how the god Enki warns Ziusudra, king of Shuruppak, of the gods' decision to destroy mankind in a flood. The passage describing why the gods have decided this is unfortunately lost. Enki instructs Ziusudra to build a large boat. After a flood of seven days, Ziusudra opens the boat's window and then offers sacrifices and prostrations to An (the sky-god) and Enlil (the chief of the gods). He is rewarded by being given eternal life in Dilmun (the Sumerian Eden)."
"Utnapishtim tells how Ea (the Babylonian equivalent of the Sumerian Enki) warned him of the gods' plan to destroy all life through a Great Flood and instructed him to build a vessel in which he could save his family, his friends and servants, his cattle, and other wealth. The deluge comes and covers the earth. As in the Genesis version, Untapishtim sends out both a dove and raven from his boat before descending on dry land. After the Deluge, he offers a sacrifice to the gods, who repented their action and make Utnapishtim immortal."
"The Deucalion legend, as told by Apollodorus in The Library has some similarity to Noah's flood, and the name Deucalion is related to wine, of which the biblical Noah was the inventor. When the anger of Zeus was ignited against the hubris of the Pelasgians, Zeus decided to put an end to the First Bronze Age with the Deluge. Prometheus advised his son Deucalion to build a chest or ark to save himself, and other men perished except for a few who escaped to high mountains. The mountains in Thessaly were parted, and all the world beyond the Isthmus and Peloponnese was overwhelmed. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha, after floating in a chest for nine days and nights, landed on Parnassus. An older version of the story told by Hellanicus has Deucalion's "ark" landing on Mount Othrys in Thessaly. Another account has him landing on a peak, probably Phouka, in Argolis, later called Nemea. When the rains ceased, he sacrificed to Zeus."
If there's any wood structure at all in that glacier, it would have to be something like a Neolithic-era building. It's physically impossible for the atmosphere to support enough water to produce over 10,000 feet of rain globally in 40 days, and not enough water exists on the entire planet for a ship to reach that site. If the earth's topography were completely flattened, the combined waters of all oceans, lakes and rivers would be approximately 2,400 meters deep. That's nowhere near the 4,000 meter elevation of this discovery, and any wood below the 3,900 meter permanent snow line would have rotted away long ago.
So, um... not a chance.
Message edited by author 2010-11-09 21:50:59. |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 10:25:33 PM · #678 |
| Hard to believe this goofy thread is still around almost 2 years after it was launched. Also hard to believe how it's morphed since then. Interesting it's had such a run on a photo site. Go figure. |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 10:53:37 PM · #679 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Stories of aliens at Roswell and Nessie at Loch Ness are also claimed to be factual by many locals. It's good for business. |
Yup, if the Roswell stories had been around before the Anasazi I'd be more intrigued, and tourism business around Mount Ararat is a bit slow, not a big tourism trade around there since the silk road petered out.
But just because something is weird does not make it false. The old stories, the really really old ones are often like pearls that have grown up around a grain of truth.
If there is a boat up there the odds are about as good that it is Noah's Arc as the Jesus boat's being used by Jesus but that it is claimed by one myth or another does not mean it isn't there. |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 11:34:37 PM · #680 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
..."But just because something is weird does not make it false. The old stories, the really really old ones are often like pearls that have grown up around a grain of truth" |
Funny thing that...there are all kinds of native legends dealing with spiritual beings, shape shifters and other mythical beings that have been handed down over many generations, but weird as it may seem, most white folks don't lend any credence to them.
Why is that?
Ray |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 11:37:11 PM · #681 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
that it is claimed by one myth or another does not mean it isn't there. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever myth you'd like to choose, there's not enough water on the entire planet to get a ship anywhere near the elevation in question. |
|
|
|
11/09/2010 11:41:27 PM · #682 |
...Brings to mind the old adage that says: "My mind is made up...don't confuse me with facts" :O)
Ray |
|
|
|
11/10/2010 08:03:15 AM · #683 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
shape shifters and other mythical beings that have been handed down over many generations, but weird as it may seem, most white folks don't lend any credence to them.
Why is that?
Ray |
I'm a shape shifter. Currently the waist is 52. Uggh. Occasionally over a year or so it will shift to 38. Need to shift again! And even though I jest, my Great
Great Grandmother was Cherokee. She wasn't a shape shifter. Just a mid-wife/root-doctor. I do pass as a "white folk", but I'm really German, Scotch-Irish, English, Spanish/African/Cherokee. Did meet a real shape-shifter one time. She was double-jointed too! |
|
|
|
11/10/2010 08:18:39 AM · #684 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Funny thing that...there are all kinds of native legends dealing with spiritual beings, shape shifters and other mythical beings that have been handed down over many generations, but weird as it may seem, most white folks don't lend any credence to them.
Why is that?
Ray |
Likely the same reasons some posters on this site don't believe the Jesus of scripture existed in the manner portrayed.
Yet others are a bit more "open minded" about such things as spirits. However on this site they are typically ridiculed as too stupid to know better.
What I have found is that there are unexplained events and occurrences. Some of these find their way into legend, stories, history, etc. Typically there is some truth to the original account. Scoffers take the OJ defense that if the glove doesn't fit then you must acquit - however it usually is not that simple - not even for OJ.
Was there ever a King Arthur? Perhaps not literally as portrayed in medieval literature, however some reasonably plausible explainations exits for the origins of the Legend. Roswell has many questions unanswered. As [The X Files] say - "the truth is out there". Was Kennedy killed by Oswall? Was there an Ark of the Covenant? Did Moses see a burning bush? Was the Red Sea parted? Will the Dead Sea Scrolls illuminate an insight that was lost? All I know is that through archeology and science and time, many mysteries that were scoffed at have been shown to have a truth to their origin. Shape shifting may one day be as common place as cell phones. Then again it could all be bunk - like that rocket trail seen off the coast of California that has been determined to have been a Jet trail. Settles it for me. |
|
|
|
11/10/2010 10:41:44 AM · #685 |
Originally posted by Flash:
All I know is that through archeology and science and time, many mysteries that were scoffed at have been shown to have a truth to their origin. |
Through archeology and science and time, how many of those truths turned out to be supernatural? |
|
|
|
11/10/2010 02:10:57 PM · #686 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
All I know is that through archeology and science and time, many mysteries that were scoffed at have been shown to have a truth to their origin. |
Through archeology and science and time, how many of those truths turned out to be supernatural? |
Eucharistic Miracles
For the Pope to declare someone a saint, 3 miracles have to be attributed to that person. Saints are declared yearly, so something happening. Independent studies are conducted to prove the miracles are valid.
There an way to many for me to list. |
|
|
|
11/10/2010 02:17:28 PM · #687 |
| Don't be drawn in Nullix. It's a fool's errand. Science cannot prove something to be supernatural. It's the same as attempting to prove a negative. The question is answered before it's asked. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 02:33:14 AM · #688 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
For the Pope to declare someone a saint, 3 miracles have to be attributed to that person. Saints are declared yearly, so something happening. Independent studies are conducted to prove the miracles are valid. There an way to many for me to list. |
Really now... I was always under the impression that the independent studies you allude to were done exclusively by in-house experts. It might also be of interest to note that a great portion of the saints never had to meet the more stringent requirements that now exist, were often deemed saints almost immediately after their death.
It would be interesting to see if the miracles alluded to would witstand scientific scrutiny.
As an aside, it would seem that one of the latest saints was not always highly thought of by the church Link
Food for thought?
Ray |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 10:39:45 AM · #689 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
that it is claimed by one myth or another does not mean it isn't there. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever myth you'd like to choose, there's not enough water on the entire planet to get a ship anywhere near the elevation in question. |
Ex Nihilo |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 11:02:22 AM · #690 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
that it is claimed by one myth or another does not mean it isn't there. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever myth you'd like to choose, there's not enough water on the entire planet to get a ship anywhere near the elevation in question. |
Ex Nihilo |
That argument would make a mockery of the story itself. The ark could have been created ex nihilo rather than task a 600 year old man (!) with construction beyond even 21st century engineering, the animals after the flood could have been created ex nihilo making their travel arrangements moot, and the wicked people could have simply been poofed away without slaughtering all other innocent plant and animal life on the planet. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 11:16:19 AM · #691 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
that it is claimed by one myth or another does not mean it isn't there. |
It doesn't matter. Whatever myth you'd like to choose, there's not enough water on the entire planet to get a ship anywhere near the elevation in question. |
Ex Nihilo |
That argument would make a mockery of the story itself. |
Then you obviously misunderstand the purpose of the story. Remember, the Bible is not just recording accounts of what God did, but it is recording accounts of what God did for the purpose of teaching us something. If God just wanted to start over he could have gone with the poof method. He did it the way that he did in order to teach future generations. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 12:48:22 PM · #692 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
He did it the way that he did in order to teach future generations. |
That's even more senseless than your first claim. What possible difference would it make to future generations whether the rest of humanity was wiped out by a poofed-in global flood or poofed-out people (aside from the specter of a supposedly loving and omniscient god demonstrating incompetence by killing innocent bunnies, fawns, daisies and all other life in the process)? |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 12:53:31 PM · #693 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
(aside from the specter of a supposedly loving and omniscient god demonstrating incompetence by killing innocent bunnies, fawns, daisies and all other life in the process)? |
Silence! Thou cannot know the mind of God. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 01:35:56 PM · #694 |
Originally posted by JH:
Silence! Thou cannot know the mind of God. |
Heh- I can know absurdity when I see it. Rather than just tell Noah (and thus all future generations) that he's about to hit the "let there be no wicked people" reset button, God supposedly doubled the amount of water on this planet via magic poof to flood all the lands to 12,000 feet or so, thereby killing all other life, wicked or not, and destroying the food chain that would be needed to support the ark's inhabitants. No plant life would remain after being submerged at four times the crush depth of a nuclear submarine. All crabs and shellfish would be flattened, and no walleye or whale would survive the salinity change of the homogenized waters. No lion will endure six months of starvation waiting for the gazelles to restock the buffet with nothing to graze on. The earth's atmosphere cannot physically support enough water to rain that much in 40 days, nor would there be anywhere for it to recede. The climate would have been radically altered by so much liquid water hitting the poles in a little over a month. Such an event a mere 6,000 years ago would stand out like a neon sign in the very recent geologic record, yet we find instead an unbroken history of civilization around the globe and that the last mass extinction event to wipe out more than 50% of animal species was 65 million years ago. The whole thing reeks of mythology, and even diehard Christians dismiss similar myths told by earlier cultures. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 02:23:58 PM · #695 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Remember, the Bible is not just recording accounts of what God did, but it is recording accounts of what God did for the purpose of teaching us something. |
Rather sad that you have this omnipotent and omnipresent deity that can't devise a mechanism to ensure that all of these epic events are duly recorded and readily proved. Christiany has borrowed all types of pagaen rituals and would have us believe that all of these people were godless.
Considering the state of the world today, one would think that this deity would swoop down on mankind, create another flood and have us appreciate that we have swayed from the righteous path...byt according to some it is coming.
Ray |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 04:37:13 PM · #696 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Remember, the Bible is not just recording accounts of what God did, but it is recording accounts of what God did for the purpose of teaching us something. |
Rather sad that you have this omnipotent and omnipresent deity that can't devise a mechanism to ensure that all of these epic events are duly recorded and readily proved. Christiany has borrowed all types of pagaen rituals and would have us believe that all of these people were godless.
Considering the state of the world today, one would think that this deity would swoop down on mankind, create another flood and have us appreciate that we have swayed from the righteous path...byt according to some it is coming.
Ray |
Actually, many religious people think just that. Some like Pat Robertson even go as far as pointing out specific events like 9/11 and the Haiti earthquake as clear examples of God's wrath in today's world. He's often called looney even by religious people, but all he's doing is following the logic of his god-intervening worldview. Many who share that same worldview do the exact same thing as Robertson, but will only have the courage to do so when the event is deemed good or neutral like when a baby is saved in a fire. Of course God did that.
Message edited by author 2010-11-11 16:41:44.
|
|
|
|
11/11/2010 04:52:15 PM · #697 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Rather sad that you have this omnipotent and omnipresent deity that can't devise a mechanism to ensure that all of these epic events are duly recorded and readily proved. |
Originally posted by Omnipotent and Omnipresent Deity in John 20:29:
...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed... |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Christiany has borrowed all types of pagaen rituals and would have us believe that all of these people were godless. |
I'm sure there are some Christian rituals that reflect some pagaen ritual. Does that make them invalid?
|
|
|
|
11/11/2010 04:58:16 PM · #698 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Rather sad that you have this omnipotent and omnipresent deity that can't devise a mechanism to ensure that all of these epic events are duly recorded and readily proved. |
Originally posted by Omnipotent and Omnipresent Deity in John 20:29:
...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed... |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Christiany has borrowed all types of pagaen rituals and would have us believe that all of these people were godless. |
I'm sure there are some Christian rituals that reflect some pagaen ritual. Does that make them invalid? |
Little Red Riding Hood has been told in many different forms, each borrowed from the other in some way. It's still a fairytale. Quite a few tales from the bible predate Christianity by hundreds of years, the story has just been updated and made to fit it's time.
eta: //www.facts4u.com/OffSite_Stored_Pages/Mithra--A_Brief.htm
Mithraism could be considered ancestral to Christianity in the sense of memetic evolution. And, naturally, competition is a major factor involved in evolution. In other words, the story of Jesus was a plagiarization and evolution of at least 16 prior pagan stories of virgin born god-man redeemers who died and mythologically resurrected. Paul, and other Church fathers (affected with Mithraism), consciously or unconsciously blended Mithra's biography with the life of Jesus and then--because of the human tendency to err, to fantasize, to intimidate opponents, and to sensationalize for self-interest reasons--exaggerated the tall tale to create The Greatest Story (fantasy) Ever Told.
Message edited by author 2010-11-11 17:10:16. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 05:30:57 PM · #699 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I'm sure there are some Christian rituals that reflect some pagaen ritual. Does that make them invalid? |
Considering that Christianity has always looked down on pagaens and strived to convert these poor misguided souls, the answer in a nutshell would be yes.
As an aside, you never did address the question raised above regarding sainthood... we are waiting. :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2010-11-11 17:31:08. |
|
|
|
11/11/2010 06:27:15 PM · #700 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
As an aside, you never did address the question raised above regarding sainthood... we are waiting. |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I was always under the impression that the independent studies you allude to were done exclusively by in-house experts. |
I'm trying to find something online, but I can't at the moment. I remember reading about one of the latest recognized saint's miracle. It was done through a blind study. I remember it being about a woman scientist who specialized in research of a deadly cancer. She was commissioned to review some tissue samples of someone with this cancer. In her studies, she found that the cancer was gone after about 6 months. The scientist commented that this was impossible and must be a miracle. Turns out, the people who commissioned the study was the Vatican and they were verifying a miracle.
I wish I can find this article.
I did find the saint you referenced earlier Mary McKillop You can easily lookup her miracles
Originally posted by RayEthier:
It might also be of interest to note that a great portion of the saints never had to meet the more stringent requirements that now exist, were often deemed saints almost immediately after their death. |
Yes, these were Martyrs who died for the faith. By the 4th century, there were people who confessed their faith not by dying, but by word and life. Any web search will show you the process.
|
|
