Science and Theology, the sequel

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/15/2010 07:23:55 PM · #1976

Thanks Clive. Certainly that looks like a moral system we might identify with, although I would not say it specifically reflects what we view as "reciprocity". There is no "Golden rule" elucidated in the text. If I were to describe it, I might use the term "social justice", which I certainly think of as a good thing.

Even if we agree Ma'at was Reciprocity, we would need to be able to trace the lines downward to modern civilization. What is the proposed line?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

10/15/2010 07:25:39 PM · #1977

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

What is the proposed line?

Trying to answer your question before you ask ... :-)

10/15/2010 07:25:51 PM · #1978

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Leviticus was written more than a thousand years before that, so if it's "commonly mentioned" they are "commonly wrong"...

Depends on which school you ascribe to, I suppose. Some aren't quite as, um...liberal...with the dates, but I know how you love that old "bible is history" chestnut. ;-)

Hehe. Well, even if I take your academic sources, wouldn't it still place it easily 300-500 years earlier? That's still pretty comfortable a gap to say it predates Hilel...

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

10/15/2010 07:35:47 PM · #1979

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'll have a dig around to see if i can come up with anything similar to the "Golden rule". There may be something, i'm not sure.

As to a proposed lineage down to today, i couldn't say really. There are so many aspects of Judeo-Chrisitianity that can be found 1000-2000 years earlier in places such as Egypt then i suppose that could be one of them. Personally, i don't believe that reciprocity is solely the reserve of any religion really.

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/15/2010 07:42:55 PM · #1980

Since Scalvert isn't here... :P

Golden Rule wiki

10/15/2010 07:57:37 PM · #1981

Originally posted by yanko:

Since Scalvert isn't here... :P

Golden Rule wiki

Thanks Richard. I see that the Wiki mentions the story of The Eloquent Peasant from around 2000BCE, and the line... "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to cause that he do." . I've got this story so i'll have a read tomorrow and see what context that line is in, and if there is a better translation. That story is not didactic or 'religious' though but it'll be interesting to check it out.

Message edited by author 2010-10-15 19:57:59.

10/15/2010 08:08:43 PM · #1982

Originally posted by yanko:

Since Scalvert isn't here... :P

Golden Rule wiki

Here's a link to the story: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml12.htm. It's at the bottom after the green "p. 126". I do not see that phrase within and I have to say I still see this as a case of "social justice" (defend the defenseless) and not a good story of the Golden Rule. I mean, the pharoah delayed justice because he wanted to write down what the man said due to his eloquence. (His Majesty said: "This man hath great eloquence. See that his wrong is not righted for a little time yet, and arrange that all his fine speeches are recorded by your scribes. I should like to hear them word by word. Meantime see that his wife and his children do not want for food...Daily did the wronged man wait the coming forth of the noble, whom he addressed with great eloquence and poetic fervour. The scribes recorded all the words of his mouth. But Meritensa pretended not to heed him, and he even had him beaten.") Then the Pharoah delegates the justice for someone else to do (Pharaoh said: "I cannot attend to this matter. Consider it yourself and see that justice is done.").

If this is an early version of the Golden rule, it's pretty primitive. I don't really see it myself.

10/15/2010 08:14:52 PM · #1983

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Since Scalvert isn't here... :P

Golden Rule wiki

Here's a link to the story: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml12.htm. It's at the bottom after the green "p. 126". I do not see that phrase within and I have to say I still see this as a case of "social justice" (defend the defenseless) and not a good story of the Golden Rule. I mean, the pharoah delayed justice because he wanted to write down what the man said due to his eloquence. (His Majesty said: "This man hath great eloquence. See that his wrong is not righted for a little time yet, and arrange that all his fine speeches are recorded by your scribes. I should like to hear them word by word. Meantime see that his wife and his children do not want for food...Daily did the wronged man wait the coming forth of the noble, whom he addressed with great eloquence and poetic fervour. The scribes recorded all the words of his mouth. But Meritensa pretended not to heed him, and he even had him beaten.") Then the Pharoah delegates the justice for someone else to do (Pharaoh said: "I cannot attend to this matter. Consider it yourself and see that justice is done.").

If this is an early version of the Golden rule, it's pretty primitive. I don't really see it myself.

Yea, i'd probably agree. That translation you link to is over 100 years old itself though and as such will be incredibly inaccurate. I've got two different recent translations so i'll take a look tomorrow. I still think the most likely source would be the Wisdom Texts but i'm sure others have had a good look already.

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

10/15/2010 08:18:16 PM · #1984

I'm not even sure I understand what " Do to the doer to cause that he do" means... :)

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/15/2010 08:27:58 PM · #1985

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm not even sure I understand what " Do to the doer to cause that he do" means... :)

It means you're wrong. :P

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/15/2010 08:30:47 PM · #1986

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'm not even sure I understand what " Do to the doer to cause that he do" means... :)

Nope, me neither. That, again, is an old translation according to the footnotes though. From the 50s this time.

Message edited by author 2010-10-15 20:46:11.

david_c

Canon EOS-7D

10/15/2010 08:38:55 PM · #1987

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Hehe. Well, even if I take your academic sources, wouldn't it still place it easily 300-500 years earlier? That's still pretty comfortable a gap to say it predates Hilel...

Sure. I guess the inference, then, is that the Greek philospohers were influenced by Leviticus when they waxed on about reciprocity? Seems like a bit of a stretch...

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

10/15/2010 09:26:10 PM · #1988

I'd like to point out that 'people' or 'others' in the context of the golden rule did not mean the same thing then as it does today.

You know, with the slaves and all. And the women.

The whole idea breaks down when you can choose who's an actual person or not.

Ahh, moral relativism. You're just so inescapable.

Message edited by author 2010-10-15 21:27:19.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/16/2010 04:51:58 AM · #1989

Originally posted by Mousie:

Very good point. I'll be a bit pedantic when it come to Dynastic Egypt about the common idea of them using millions of slaves for building pyramids and temples etc. This has been pretty much discredited over the last few decades but the view is still prevalent due to images from '50s and '60s epic film mostly. Instead they used a typical workforce really, craftsmen, foremen, labourers etc. Archeology over the last 40 years or so has increasingly studied the larger population as opposed to the higher classes and this has revealed workers villages, documents, even graffitti that shows a pretty 'modern' idea of a workforce. They did have slaves of course, mostly prisoners of war, and surely treated them badly, but not to the extent as is commonly perceived.

There was also a surprising amount of equal rights when it came to women as well, arguably not to be seen again until very recently. Women were able to divorce their husbands, for example, and able to get their fair share of property and money from it. They were able to be business owners as well. This is 4000 years ago remember. Quite amazing to think of the timescale here.

As i said before though, they were an incredibly insular people which gave them a huge superiority and xenophobia in regards to other peoples so even if did have something similar to a golden rule it would certainly not extend to anyone who was not egyptian.

But yes, moral relativism. They also preformed millions of animal sacrifices a year to appease, or petition, their Gods. I often meet new age types who love the idea of the Cat Goddess Bast and like to talk about how cats were loved and revered then. It tends to shatter their illusions when i tell them about the special cat farms that were for sacrificial days where literally thousands of cats were killed in production line way, the method, which had to be quick to cover so many, was to swing the cat round fast, holding its back legs, onto a hard stone corner breaking its neck. Then again of course, today we in the west slaughter far more animals to turn into amusing dinosaur shaped breadcrumbed food.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I tend to go off on one with this subject.

david_c

Canon EOS-7D

10/16/2010 09:13:41 AM · #1990

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

I studied Egyptology for a few years and have many of these in translation so i'll have a look in the morning.

Fascinating. I think, if there was one thing I regret not becoming, it would be an archaeologist specializing in Ancient Egypt. Or an F1 driver. :-D

Let me take this way off topic (sorry!), then, and ask...why does mainstream Egyptology deny the existence of the link between the Giza monuments and Orion's "Three Kings"?

Why is there even any doubt that the Sphinx was originally a Lion? The "pharaoh's" head is so unbelievably out of proportion, it's comical. Even the colouration of the stone is different, meaning Khafra was the vandal at best:

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

10/16/2010 10:24:41 AM · #1991

Yes, it's been a passion of mine since i was a kid. I never studied it at any higher education level though although i would have liked to. You really need to be fluent in French, German and, increasingly, Arabic to study it seriously with a career in mind. I did go and live for a year in Egypt though to get to know the place. My main areas of interest are the funereal texts and ideas and in particular the Middle -New Kingdom books such as the Amduat and Book Of Gates and similar. I'm also very interested in the language and learnt hieroglyphic to a basic standard. It's amazing how quickly you forget it without practice though and since i've been back in the UK the last 16 months a lot of it seems to have fallen out my brain. I should get some regular reading and writing practice going.

As to your questions i think it just has to do with mainstream Egyptology still being incredibly staid and conservative and very slow to allow new ideas to permeate. It does seem obvious that the Giza Sphinx was originally fully a lion and that Khafra or perhaps his brother remodeled the head. The main problem for traditionalists is that the re-dating of the Sphinx, by some to be more than 2000 years before the current dating of 2500BCE, is so huge it just shunts the whole accepted timeline out and has a domino effect across so many areas. The other thing, of course, is that much of this research is done outside the mainstream which automatically puts it into the 'alternative' archeology position and once there it rubs shoulders with aliens, atlantis and the rest. It's a shame that there is often no distinction and much great stuff gets ignored or automatically ridiculed because of it. The same with the 'Three Kings' and similar as Astro Archaeology is such a new discipline really.

Flash

Nikon D700

10/20/2010 12:56:05 PM · #1992

Dead Sea Scrolls to be on Google

One combination of Science and Theology...the posting of the Dead Sea Scroll remnants.

Message edited by author 2010-10-20 12:56:23.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/20/2010 12:58:04 PM · #1993

Originally posted by Flash:

Dead Sea Scrolls to be on Google

One combination of Science and Theology...the posting of the Dead Sea Scroll remnants.

Should be fascinating ... at least it's one case where they shouldn't have to worry about copyright violations ... :-)

Does anyone know if there's a scanned Gutenberg Bible posted anywhere?

Message edited by author 2010-10-20 12:59:19.

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

10/20/2010 02:56:50 PM · #1994

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Flash:
Dead Sea Scrolls to be on Google

One combination of Science and Theology...the posting of the Dead Sea Scroll remnants.

Should be fascinating ... at least it's one case where they shouldn't have to worry about copyright violations ... :-)

Does anyone know if there's a scanned Gutenberg Bible posted anywhere?

Google is your friend.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

01/30/2011 12:36:11 PM · #1995

Atheists are Wrong and Evil!

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/30/2011 01:42:12 PM · #1996

...and sometimes hot.

Nullix

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

01/30/2011 01:53:52 PM · #1997

"But what about Hitler!"

That's pretty funny.