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10/07/2010 01:17:57 AM · #1 |
I rarely rant. I can't even think of the last time I ranted - but today I have a photography, or better said, DPC related tirade. Being creative does NOT require staying within the tight, confining, literal box!
As a teacher of gifted students in my former career, we would work on creatively coming up with lists asking for "Many, varied and unusual" (MVU) responses. Looking at social ills, we'd look at the MVU cause of poverty. Looking at a math problem, we'd ask for MVU ways of representing a number like 10. Etc.
My 4th, 5th and 6th graders could look at a topic from more angles within their first 20 tries than the voters of this site ever do. Here on DPC the "voters" tend to be very literal. If the challenge asks to portray family, then you'd better have people of various ages in the picture. Don't go out on a limb (even a strong one) showing items with a commonality - although that's one definition of family. No, you'll be punished by the voters for not going with the common and general UNcreative definition of the word.
Why then do we post a challenge description with "as always, be creative," and then punish images in our voting that strays outside the typical definition? What will it take to reward true creativity? I'd rather the descriptions were honest and said, "make your images unique, interesting, and pleasing, but keep the the typical definition of the challenge topic" than to face the "be creative" phrase and get punished.
Obviously, I have a picture in voting that has hit a nerve. Still, I have a wonderful shot that has "jaw-dropped" those who have seen it. It doesn't matter what the voters say - I'll have that. What I don't have, is confidence that the DPC voters can see beyond the narrow box, which just gets narrower all the time.
So, what's your view on DPC and creativity? |
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10/07/2010 02:01:41 AM · #2 |
I tried to be out of the box on this shot 
And apparently stuffed animal doesn't count for animal/people interaction.
I will say it's not a great shot but my creativity was punished I believe. |
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10/07/2010 03:04:59 AM · #3 |
I think you should still strive for creativity, regardless. Art is subjective and completely open to interpretation. I have just gotten my new personal best score and rank on a challenge, so I'm pretty pumped up about that right now, but I understand that it's still just an internet popularity contest (which is a much more reassuring way for me to think of it when the scores aren't going so well). I'm much more pleased that my latest entry has the most comments of any of my previous entries.
Find out what part of all this makes you happy and focus on that. If getting poor scores frustrates you... perhaps you should ignore that and find another aspect of the DPC experience that works better for you. If that fails, then maybe it's not the experience you need/want at all.
Currently, I'm really happy just connecting with the community of photographers here that are active in the forums. I've only been around about 2-3 months, but it's been a really positive experience overall. I haven't really had much formal art training, and I haven't been much interested in much that is called art, but I'm unlocking this new part of myself and making connections with other folks who like to take time to enjoy it. There are some great threads where this group of people is pointing out their favorites. I find I tend to agree more with their view than the popular vote, though sometimes they do coincide at times.
Not everyone here is just clicking away furiously at numbers to get through a challenge as fast as possible. Unfortunately, since that takes less time, I've reasoned out that statistically you're likely to collect more votes from speed-voters than you are from those that are enjoying the art and creativity. I may still eventually make some sense of what seems completely non-sensical with the voting behaviors at DPC, but I decided I wouldn't beat myself up over it, because that's not what I want from my time spent here.
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10/07/2010 03:07:45 AM · #4 |
The problem is that you are dealing with the averaging of multiple opinions. The photos that most people agree on are the ones that win. There are some damn fine photos that come in with the pack or even place low. These are the out of the box images that you refer to. You have to keep in mind that these are also the ones that have less agreement over them. Look at more than the average score and the ribbons. Maybe that statement does not come off right, with one of my shots on the front page right now. Yes, it feels darn good to win one, but some of my most successful entries and personal faves are ones that appealed strongly to a narrower crowd. My current freestudy entry is an outstanding success for me, even though it is only pulling about 5.6 right now. I have a bunch of these mid-packers on my profile age. Most of these are low to mid scoring successes for me. You just have to look at the comments and the commenters average to see if it was a good image with narrow appeal.
In a nutshell, the average is not everything, you MUST evaluate the whole thing to know if you nailed it or not.
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10/07/2010 03:31:32 AM · #5 |
| I think Yo_Spiff makes an excellent point. While writing my long-winded bit, somewhere along the way I had thought about: some of the people, all of the time... all of the people, some of the time (or even not at all). ;) |
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10/07/2010 04:08:22 AM · #6 |
Every photograph is creative, in the literal sense, is it not?
The question of appreciation in the voting comes down to whether or not the image meets the expectation of the viewer. Alas, for many, exploration consists of planting a flag in their own front yard. Feeling comfortable only with what they expected to see, and discomforted by everything else.
As for the question of meeting the challenge, how can one say if an image is DNMC? How can you know what was in the photographer's mind? And why should it matter? My assumption when voting is that every image meets the challenge, just because it is there. If I don't at first see the connection (or indeed ever see the connection), I consider that a plus factor, and not a minus. I like to plant my own flags in more distant lands, and if they are strange and discomforting places then I am happy. That's what flags are traditionally for; laying claim to new territory. |
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10/07/2010 04:48:47 AM · #7 |
DPC does have lot of people who don't think outside of the box, but I don't think that should be a problem ... like everyone says, creativity is subjective, especially when you start breaking the "rules".
I am a fairly mainstream person in terms of tastes but my experience of DPC has developed my out of the box thinking, things like the posthumous awards threads have really opened my eyes to not only appreciate different types of creativity but to also try them too ... I've found some things I really love that I would not have even tried a couple of years ago ... I've also found things I hate and would never do again :) Still, most of my out of the box stuff is only just out side the box ...
I certainly enter much less than I did a year ago but I also enter stuff that I know will not score well, my fs entry is on 5.1 now and I knew it was going to be about there but I loved the shot so I entered it anyway, I think you have to put your "how will this score on DPC" head on when you submit, I've started putting predictions in my comments before submitting, sometimes it goes even worse, sometimes I've been surprised! But I am taking pictures for me (most of the time!!) |
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10/07/2010 07:27:39 AM · #8 |
To score well with the voters on this site, you need to look at the challenges as an assignment for a stock photography client. Anything outside of that will not score as well. If you don't like the lower scores, don't enter images that don't fit "norm". The real challenge is shooting the expected in an unexpected way and not shooting the unexpected in a normal way.
Tim |
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10/07/2010 10:25:35 AM · #9 |
As they say, "It is what it is."
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10/07/2010 10:30:22 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by atupdate:
The real challenge is shooting the expected in an unexpected way and not shooting the unexpected in a normal way.
Tim |
I agree with this.
It's a little frustrating -- because there are people who claim that you aren't original or creative if you follow the main intent of the challenge. I think it's easier to come up with unique, out-of-the-box definitions of the challenge, though the pictures don't fair well. I find it extremely difficult to be creative within the narrow definition of some challenges. Monuments and memorials was one such challenge. I could have come up with some very creative out of the box images that kind of fit the challenge, that would definitely have scored DNMC with some people and make others very happy. But I found it impossible to come up with a creative, interesting shot that fit the challenge. That's why I'm currently at 5.0000.
In voting, I consider that everything fits the challenge, until I come up against a picture that stretches it just too far, and I can't even begin to understand what they were thinking.
That being said -- I usually vote higher for the creative shots that fit the definition well. Because I think it's more difficult to stand above the pack when the whole pack is clamoring for the same thing. Let's say you have a tree challenge and there are 150 entries of trees and one entry of a piece of paper. I'm not going to be impressed because someone came up with something that kind of fit the challenge--and imo, it does meet the challenge. I'll be more impressed with someone who can take their entry, put it against 150 others photographing the same thing, and make it outstanding.
Message edited by author 2010-10-07 10:31:32.
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10/07/2010 11:29:12 AM · #11 |
Another hate the voters who know nothing thread. Nice.
It's threads like these that ruin my experience here on DPC.
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10/07/2010 12:33:35 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Another hate the voters who know nothing thread. Nice. |
I find it humorous that we talk about the voters as if they are someone other than ourselves.
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10/07/2010 12:35:27 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Jac:
It's threads like these that ruin my experience here on DPC. |
Don't read 'em. I never do. |
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10/07/2010 12:55:39 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by ubique:
Originally posted by Jac:
It's threads like these that ruin my experience here on DPC. |
Don't read 'em. I never do. |
Err, lol |
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10/07/2010 01:00:24 PM · #15 |
So if an object had been photographed a thousand times before, how do you shoot it in the most creative and original way? My guess is, that question cannot simply be answered. It can only be done... achieved. And once you have done it, then you have passed the challenge. And that object would then have been photographed a thousand and one times before. And so you pass on the challenge to the next photographer.
I mean, one hundred photographers can take a picture of the statue of liberty, but they wouldn't all be the same. One or two, maybe more, would be creative enough (i think) to stand out.
And about the snapshot outcome of monuments, i think it;s ok. As long as it looks good. I was not able to join the monuments challenge, but my entry might have been a snapshot. The last postcard that i received years ago was a photo of the Pyramids, commercially printed and mass produced. I cannot find where it is now, but the way i remember it, that nice looking postcard kinda looked like a snapshot. |
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10/07/2010 01:38:02 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by atupdate:
The real challenge is shooting the expected in an unexpected way and not shooting the unexpected in a normal way.
Tim |
Originally posted by vawendy:
I agree with this.
It's a little frustrating -- because there are people who claim that you aren't original or creative if you follow the main intent of the challenge. I think it's easier to come up with unique, out-of-the-box definitions of the challenge, though the pictures don't fair well. I find it extremely difficult to be creative within the narrow definition of some challenges. Monuments and memorials was one such challenge. I could have come up with some very creative out of the box images that kind of fit the challenge, that would definitely have scored DNMC with some people and make others very happy. But I found it impossible to come up with a creative, interesting shot that fit the challenge. That's why I'm currently at 5.0000.
In voting, I consider that everything fits the challenge, until I come up against a picture that stretches it just too far, and I can't even begin to understand what they were thinking.
That being said -- I usually vote higher for the creative shots that fit the definition well. Because I think it's more difficult to stand above the pack when the whole pack is clamoring for the same thing. Let's say you have a tree challenge and there are 150 entries of trees and one entry of a piece of paper. I'm not going to be impressed because someone came up with something that kind of fit the challenge--and imo, it does meet the challenge. I'll be more impressed with someone who can take their entry, put it against 150 others photographing the same thing, and make it outstanding. |
I usually stay out of these discussions but Tim and Wendy have really stated my feelings about this subject well. It is not much of a challenge to create an interesting photo that loosely meets a challenge because you are not competing against the majority of photos that will be submitted. I seem to get about the same average for a photo that is "out of the box" and done well versus a photo that meets the challenge 100% but is not creative. The challenge (and what keeps me coming back here) is to be creative AND meet the challenge. When you do that AND make a connection with the voters you will get a higher average (whether that is what you are after or not). |
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10/07/2010 03:14:02 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Cyberlandz:
So if an object had been photographed a thousand times before, how do you shoot it in the most creative and original way? |
Often it is the lighting, perspective, or a combination. I'm usually too lazy to shot during optimal lighting and my scores reflect that.
Tim
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10/07/2010 05:04:47 PM · #18 |
re: So, what's your view on DPC and creativity?
I know how you feel...Have you ever read my bio? lol...I try hard to be creative..& I am told by lotsa people I am creative..but I've surpassed entering excellent quality "common" shots to enter poorer quality "oob" shots, numerous amount of times. Some shots I have felt like they have should of scored higher, just on creativity alone. But usually I always have "something" lacking...Oh and I always have my critters, not too creative but one of my joys in shooting.
Why do I have the common shots to surpass? I have to be shooting pictures to really relax enough to let the creativity flow, my mind frees up and ideas move in. Photography IS Therapy. Within 5-10 minutes of shooting the common thing, I've thrown that off to the side to really get to work.
It is kinda disappointing to see repeated images, ya know..Overkill...and then to have a totally different idea/image that meets the challenge and see it go down in flames...I do feel like I have to stay in some sort of boundary to get the votes, though. OOB but not too OOB. Who knows where that idea comes from.
You should see my private collection sometime. LOL. :)
I really have no clue how creative/OOB I really am, I do strive to be....but different people have different ideas on what everything is or should be, And it can get really frustrating, but nothing I can do about that...but to keep entering what I like and to be proud in doing so. |
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10/07/2010 05:23:30 PM · #19 |
Ususally I'm very good about understanding the box and working my way within in it, especially when required - like scoring well on DPC. Memorial and Monument really caught me off-guard on the literal view that has been taken.
It seems to me that some descriptions are more open than others and so the interpertations should be more open than literal. However, it is what it is.
Have you ever played the game where each of you make a list of a subject (such as fruits), then eliminate the items on the list that duplicate? The person with the most remaining items on the list wins. It would be great to use the same basic concept on a challenge.
I do think that I'll suggest a challenge that asks for "Many varied and unusual" portrayal of a subject with the caveat that voters are asked to withhold 1-2 points if the portrayal is duplicated more than 3 times and rewarded with an extra point if it is unusual. It would be fun to encourage oob portrayals while still within DPC.
What a hoot! |
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10/07/2010 05:31:47 PM · #20 |
Though I knew my favorite mis-used and misspelled word: mettle on mettle would not score well.
And a better title may have helped, but I found the metal box bland and sterile.
So I lept out of the box! Though I agree the only rule is: There is Noooo Rule 6! (see Monty Python Australian Bruce's)
Don't meddle with mettle on metal! |
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