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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> RAW format vs DPC rules
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 09/18/2010 07:19:28 PM · #1
** Edit: maybe I should be discussing this in the "Transfer Software Guidelines" thread I link below. I didn't realize there were 10 pages of discussion on that announcement and that some is current. **

Hi... I'm curious about the DPC rules regarding RAW files. I found some info searching the forums, but not everything to answer my question. I've quoted and highlighted some of the info I found, which I think is most relevant to my question. I can get a bit wordy and re-explain things sometimes, but hopefully that's seen as a valuable way to clearly express a point and explain my situation.

Originally posted by DPC Basic Editing Rules:
You must... retain your original, unedited file (exactly as recorded by your camera), and provide it to the Site Council along with a list of your editing steps within 48 hours of any validation request. This notice with instructions will be sent to your listed email address, and will also appear on the left side of your DPChallenge home page when you are logged in. Files that have been saved or altered with any editing or transfer software are NOT originals. DNG files are not considered originals unless recorded in that format by the camera.


In an Administrator Announcement (Transfer Software Guidelines):
Originally posted by muckpond:
If you shoot in RAW:
Transfer software does not affect the original image data of a RAW file. Therefore, RAW files moved by transfer software are valid originals. Note that you must submit a RAW proof file when requested. A JPEG saved from the original RAW is not sufficient.


So, this says directly that as long as I shoot in RAW, then using EOS Utility is safe within the rules (for challenges that allow RAW originals). I was going to ask for clarification on this, but it seems pretty clear to me. It just seems like the wording for challenge rules needs some updating to match the guidelines in the Administrator Announcements.

Also, so far, I'm only using Canon's Digital Photo Professional (DPP) to do my editing. I've been keeping duplicate copies of the RAW files ("CR2" extension) before I begin any editing, but... since everything I can do in DPP is non-destructive and one command restores the file back to its original state, would that RAW file be considered sufficient as an "original" file, regardless of what I do to it in DPP? Near as I can tell, only the "modified" timestamp on the file (and none of the data in the file) would differ from an "original". This would seem to parallel the idea "does not affect the original image data of a RAW file", which is used as justification behind allowing RAW transfer.

I just want to be sure I don't get disqualified by forgetting to keep an extra backup copy of a RAW file. I am very concerned about keeping originals for myself and am satisfied that all my "edits" are 100% reversible. Does DPC see it the same way?

I'm mainly asking because I have images I transferred earlier in the week that might be suitable for a current challenge, but I've already flagged candidates on some (which requires a "save" to mark the file with a "1", "2", or "3" tag), and on others I've even made adjustments to contrast/saturation/etc or marked a crop. Control-Shift-Z will un-do everything (including the flags) on these. Are these still "originals"?

Message edited by author 2010-09-18 19:34:55.
 09/18/2010 07:54:42 PM · #2
As long as you can produce the RAW file that matches the submitted image, you are good. There is (currently) no transfer software on Earth, AFAIK, that can affect the validity of a RAW file as the original.
 09/18/2010 08:13:13 PM · #3
The "changes" to your CR2 file are contained in a "sidecar" file that the editing software launches every time you reopen a RAW file. When ACR is the editor, I have the following two files after I edit IMG_1234.CR2 ΓΆ€” "IMG_1234.CR2" & "IMG_1234.xmp". That xmp file is the sidecar, and it stores all the adjustments you have made to your RAW file.

So no, the original CR2 (or whatever) RAW file is not altered, and is a valid original.

R.

Message edited by author 2010-09-18 20:14:12.
 09/18/2010 10:11:54 PM · #4
I don't think I have "sidecar" files. When I save edits in Digital Photo Professional, I see that the "Modified Timestamp" does update on the file. When I copy that file to another location, using the OS copy/paste, and open the copy in DPP, the copy has the same settings as the "edited" file. So, for my software, I think the list of edits is probably kept in the CR2 datafile, but the original image data is always available and unmodified. Even if I adjust brightness/contrast/crop... is this still an "original"? If so, that saves me from making extra copies.

I've finished reading the Transfer Software Guidelines thread and that leads me to think that I should still keep an extra copy of the CR2 file at the time I get it from the camera, before I even look at any and start flagging candidate shots with DPP. It means I have to keep an extra copy of everything, but probably only until some safe duration after a challenge, and then I really only need to keep a copy of the original for the image I used and not all of the images I ever shot.

Currently, I still have all the original files for any candidates I might want to submit on the camera's card, so I can fish it off of there again, should I need it, but I'd much rather just download my images and then process, since the "editing" is 100% reversible.

09/19/2010 04:38:42 AM · #5
i have submitted cr2 files for validation after adjusting them in Canon DPP, and they have always been validated without any additional questions or issues.
 09/20/2010 03:54:11 AM · #6
good to know. thanks for the info!
 09/20/2010 08:26:46 AM · #7
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
i have submitted cr2 files for validation after adjusting them in Canon DPP, and they have always been validated without any additional questions or issues.


+1
 09/20/2010 09:55:18 AM · #8
Originally posted by zencow:
I don't think I have "sidecar" files...


You may not. Some programs save the settings to the RAW file itself. This still does not invalidate the file as an original, because the RAW data has not been changed.
The changes you are making to the file via DPP are really just a list of instructions on how to process the RAW data, and it is this list of instructions that gets saved in the file. It gets saved in an an area separate from the data.
 09/23/2010 07:26:12 AM · #9
I sent an inquiry to Sc askign this question but figured I would pose it here as well - especially if it ends up being an issue.

I have a question regarding validating an original RAW file. I was having file numbering issues with my camera for a while. What my camera was doing was starting at file number 0000 each time I put my card in the camera. So I was ending up with multiple files with the same name. When I moved the files over to my monthly folder (which was the same transfer process from card to computer through Lightroom that I have always used and had no issues with) it was adding an extra number to differentiate that file from a previous file with the same number. So now I have a Raw file that was number 0092 on the camera now file number 0092-2 in my transferred folder. Is this considered a modified file? I was under the impression that there wasnt anything I could do to modify a RAW file, but I am wondering now.
 09/23/2010 07:54:50 AM · #10
I know absolutely nothing about this, but here's my take:

All it's doing is changing the name of the file, since it was a duplicate. From what I understand, there's nothing that modifies the RAW file, no matter how hard it tries. I believe you should be fine.
 09/23/2010 01:48:00 PM · #11
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
I sent an inquiry to Sc askign this question but figured I would pose it here as well - especially if it ends up being an issue.

I have a question regarding validating an original RAW file. I was having file numbering issues with my camera for a while. What my camera was doing was starting at file number 0000 each time I put my card in the camera. So I was ending up with multiple files with the same name. When I moved the files over to my monthly folder (which was the same transfer process from card to computer through Lightroom that I have always used and had no issues with) it was adding an extra number to differentiate that file from a previous file with the same number. So now I have a Raw file that was number 0092 on the camera now file number 0092-2 in my transferred folder. Is this considered a modified file? I was under the impression that there wasnt anything I could do to modify a RAW file, but I am wondering now.


That is exactly like renaming the file - all this does is change how the filesystem on your computer references the file, it does not change the contents of the file in any way.
 09/23/2010 01:53:32 PM · #12
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
I sent an inquiry to Sc askign this question but figured I would pose it here as well - especially if it ends up being an issue.

I've replied to your ticket, but I may as well copy here too - renaming a file will never invalidate it, especially not a RAW file, so this isn't an issue for us. Of course, if you happen to "rename" by resaving a JPEG via editing (or other similar) software, then that's a different story...
 09/23/2010 02:10:33 PM · #13
Cool - Thank you Manic (and others). Glad it is not an issue. ;)
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