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08/31/2010 03:53:01 PM · #1 |
The Last Refuge of a Liberal
Just about every time I read Charles Krauthammer (they publish him in our local paper) I feel a sense of appalled fascination leavened with sickening revulsion. From my perspective, he has an incredible facility for twisting things around, for playing word games to hide the real nature of what the issues are. But how do you refute something like the above linked editorial?
Originally posted by Chrales Krauthammer:
It is a measure of the corruption of liberal thought and the collapse of its self-confidence that, finding itself so widely repudiated, it resorts reflexively to the cheapest race-baiting (in a colorful variety of forms). Indeed, how can one reason with a nation of pitchfork-wielding mobs brimming with "antipathy toward people who aren't like them" -- blacks, Hispanics, gays and Muslims -- a nation that is, as Michelle Obama once put it succinctly, "just downright mean"?
The Democrats are going to get beaten badly in November. Not just because the economy is ailing. And not just because Obama over-read his mandate in governing too far left. But because a comeuppance is due the arrogant elites whose undisguised contempt for the great unwashed prevents them from conceding a modicum of serious thought to those who dare oppose them. |
But read the whole editorial, and tell me what you think.
R.
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08/31/2010 04:30:42 PM · #2 |
Interesting stuff. Interesting in a gag-reflex sort of way. Want my take on why you are repulsed? At the core, he has a point, but only at the core. Heaped upon these reasonable questions are layers and layers of as hominem attack, statements of opinion presented as obvious fact, and words of polarization that demonize the opposition. It is a deft one-two punch and defense. If you try to point out the hyperbole, the response is to back up to the reasonable questions, "Wait, you don't find it important that illegal immigrants are here illegally?" If you try to speak reasonably you are met with hyperbole and tirade which will, more often than not, talk you out of the room just because it's louder and more in-your-face.
In general, conservatives are better at this than liberals, but that doesn't mean the left doesn't employ this as well. It's a sign of the unfortunate state we find our country in politically. |
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08/31/2010 04:38:28 PM · #3 |
And what bothers me, also, is that what you're describing is what he accuses the liberals of doing when others don't agree with them. It's gut-twistingly difficult to unravel.
Anyhway, moving on, consider this statement:
Originally posted by Krauthammer:
As for Proposition 8, is it so hard to see why people might believe that a single judge overturning the will of 7 million voters is an affront to democracy? |
As you point out, it's kind of hard to refute the "democracy in action" pitch, the "one man overturning" pitch. Until you start to think, isn't that always the way it is, in a democracy? The people speak, the courts intervene if the will of the people in not constitutional. That "one man" business is a red herring. Unless you think the people should be able to do whatever the frick they want, collectively, if they have the votes, in which case you'd be in favor of continued segregation in Alabama, civil rights never might have happened...
R.
Message edited by author 2010-08-31 16:43:11.
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08/31/2010 05:02:07 PM · #4 |
Remember, that vote was seven million to zero, or did I read the results wrong?
How about this one as an alternative ... "Is it hard to see why giving tax cuts to millionaires while cutting Food Stamp benefits for hungry children would be an affront to people's ideas of both ordinary fairness and Christian values?"
Maybe we should have a "Propaganda" challenge ... :-( |
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08/31/2010 05:05:09 PM · #5 |
I definately agree that the Democrats will be voted out in November.
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08/31/2010 05:07:03 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I definately agree that the Democrats will be voted out in November. |
If we could only vote out the Republicans first I might be OK with that ... ;-) |
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08/31/2010 05:08:05 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
I definately agree that the Democrats will be voted out in November. |
If we could only vote out the Republicans first I might be OK with that ... ;-) |
That already happened in 2008, remember?
Message edited by author 2010-08-31 17:08:17. |
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08/31/2010 05:19:07 PM · #8 |
| I mean vote them both out at the same time. |
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08/31/2010 06:22:39 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And what bothers me, also, is that what you're describing is what he accuses the liberals of doing when others don't agree with them. It's gut-twistingly difficult to unravel. |
It's only difficult to unravel if you've been living in a fishbowl for the last two or three years (not a knock against you, Robert). He's presenting conclusions without any context whatsoever. Think back to the campaign and the accusations or "fears" that Obama was an "Arab." Turn on the radio any day beginning back during the campaign up through the present time and listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or any of a number of other right-wing talking heads and you'll hear nothing but race-baiting. Or just think about the number of times some of our own DPC members have posted links here in Rant to videos suggesting that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer. I mean, this racist bullshit has been going on since it became apparent that Obama had a real shot at being elected and hasn't abated for a moment, rather has been encouraged by the Republican leadership and has intensified up to the present moment. So you call them out on their racism and bigotry, and you're a race-baiter for doing so? Yeah, right.
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
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08/31/2010 07:35:50 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And what bothers me, also, is that what you're describing is what he accuses the liberals of doing when others don't agree with them. It's gut-twistingly difficult to unravel. |
It's only difficult to unravel if you've been living in a fishbowl for the last two or three years (not a knock against you, Robert). He's presenting conclusions without any context whatsoever. Think back to the campaign and the accusations or "fears" that Obama was an "Arab." Turn on the radio any day beginning back during the campaign up through the present time and listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or any of a number of other right-wing talking heads and you'll hear nothing but race-baiting. Or just think about the number of times some of our own DPC members have posted links here in Rant to videos suggesting that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer. I mean, this racist bullshit has been going on since it became apparent that Obama had a real shot at being elected and hasn't abated for a moment, rather has been encouraged by the Republican leadership and has intensified up to the present moment. So you call them out on their racism and bigotry, and you're a race-baiter for doing so? Yeah, right.
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
Are all Republicans considered extremists/racists, or just certain ones? |
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08/31/2010 07:41:20 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Are all Republicans considered extremists/racists, or just certain ones? |
Looking in from the outside, it would seem that some of the more vocal elements in the USA do seem to dislike anything that they consider out of the norm.
Does this make them racists/extremists, probably not, but it does make one wonder.
Ray |
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08/31/2010 09:53:38 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
For some reason, there seems to be a perception in DPC that I'm a (gasp) conservative...
I'm a registered democrat, a hard-core liberal by most definitions for most of my life. I'm maybe a little less hard-core than I used to be, but I'm certainly not thinking of voting for people like that. Sheesh.
R.
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08/31/2010 09:59:07 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
For some reason, there seems to be a perception in DPC that I'm a (gasp) conservative...
I'm a registered democrat, a hard-core liberal by most definitions for most of my life. I'm maybe a little less hard-core than I used to be, but I'm certainly not thinking of voting for people like that. Sheesh.
R. |
I can't speak for anyone else Robert, but I seriously doubt that most people would even remotely consider you a conservative... I know I don't. One can be a liberal and not espouse all liberal views.
As an aside, the YOU mentioned by Judith might be a "collective" you and not directed at you personally.
Keep well my friend, and do keep an eye out for the hurricane creeping your way.
Ray |
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08/31/2010 10:49:03 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
For some reason, there seems to be a perception in DPC that I'm a (gasp) conservative...
I'm a registered democrat, a hard-core liberal by most definitions for most of my life. I'm maybe a little less hard-core than I used to be, but I'm certainly not thinking of voting for people like that. Sheesh.
R. |
I can't speak for anyone else Robert, but I seriously doubt that most people would even remotely consider you a conservative... I know I don't. One can be a liberal and not espouse all liberal views.
As an aside, the YOU mentioned by Judith might be a "collective" you and not directed at you personally.
Keep well my friend, and do keep an eye out for the hurricane creeping your way.
Ray |
Ray is correct. I meant collectively Democrats who may not be completely thrilled with Obama and the Dems; not you, Robert.
Edit to add: I never mistook you for a conservative!
Message edited by author 2010-08-31 23:22:19. |
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08/31/2010 11:19:20 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And what bothers me, also, is that what you're describing is what he accuses the liberals of doing when others don't agree with them. It's gut-twistingly difficult to unravel. |
It's only difficult to unravel if you've been living in a fishbowl for the last two or three years (not a knock against you, Robert). He's presenting conclusions without any context whatsoever. Think back to the campaign and the accusations or "fears" that Obama was an "Arab." Turn on the radio any day beginning back during the campaign up through the present time and listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or any of a number of other right-wing talking heads and you'll hear nothing but race-baiting. Or just think about the number of times some of our own DPC members have posted links here in Rant to videos suggesting that Obama is a terrorist sympathizer. I mean, this racist bullshit has been going on since it became apparent that Obama had a real shot at being elected and hasn't abated for a moment, rather has been encouraged by the Republican leadership and has intensified up to the present moment. So you call them out on their racism and bigotry, and you're a race-baiter for doing so? Yeah, right.
You may not be happy with the Dems, and goodness knows most of them leave a lot to be desired. But just think about to whom you're turning over the country if you let these extremists win in November. |
Are all Republicans considered extremists/racists, or just certain ones? |
Are you aware of the policies that some of these conservative Republicans who have been nominated are espousing? At least three that I can think of off the top of my head -- Rand Paul from Kentucky, Joe Miller in Alaska, and Sharon Angle of Nevada -- support privatizing Social Security and transforming Medicare into a voucher system, and eventually phasing out both programs. They all three support little to no regulation of private industry. In my opinion, those policies are extreme/radical. Rand Paul has made statements about the Civil Rights Act that you're probably aware of. All three have been nominated with heavy support from the Tea Party crowd, so they're going to be beholden to that constituency. The Tea Party is pushing the Republican Party as a whole further to the right. I can't claim to know what beliefs are in the hearts of every Republican, but I do know that the last Republican I'm aware of that challenged the bigoted false beliefs of the rank and file was McCain way back during the presidential campaign, and even he has given up on that now. So I think one has to conclude that the Republican Party, through their silence and their acceptance and their refusal to denounce the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, in effect condone and encourage racial fear and hatred.
Message edited by author 2010-08-31 23:20:42. |
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09/01/2010 01:04:50 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:
Are you aware of the policies that some of these conservative Republicans who have been nominated are espousing? At least three that I can think of off the top of my head -- Rand Paul from Kentucky, Joe Miller in Alaska, and Sharon Angle of Nevada -- support privatizing Social Security and transforming Medicare into a voucher system, and eventually phasing out both programs. They all three support little to no regulation of private industry. In my opinion, those policies are extreme/radical. Rand Paul has made statements about the Civil Rights Act that you're probably aware of. All three have been nominated with heavy support from the Tea Party crowd, so they're going to be beholden to that constituency. The Tea Party is pushing the Republican Party as a whole further to the right. I can't claim to know what beliefs are in the hearts of every Republican, but I do know that the last Republican I'm aware of that challenged the bigoted false beliefs of the rank and file was McCain way back during the presidential campaign, and even he has given up on that now. So I think one has to conclude that the Republican Party, through their silence and their acceptance and their refusal to denounce the likes of Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, in effect condone and encourage racial fear and hatred. |
I'm sure you know that you are only going to hear about the extreme candidates on the news, right? Who's going to mention the moderate Republican running in Maine or whatever? And I would not characterize privatizing Social Security as "extreme/radical". It's probably not a good idea, but the idea has been around for decades. Sometimes we can judge the radicalness by comparing it to the alternatives except I'm not really aware of the solutions the Democrats are suggesting for this particular problem.
My solution? Raise the age and lower the benefits. LOL. Good luck with getting that passed by anybody... |
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09/01/2010 01:14:08 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Are all Republicans considered extremists/racists, or just certain ones? |
While it is certainly true that not all Republicans are extremists/racists, it does certainly appear that what would in the past have been the extreme fringe of the Republican party (the birthers, the birchers, the theocratists, general conspiracy theorists, et al.) are now firmly ensconced into the mainstream of the Party. See, for example, the recent polling that appears to indicate that a majority of the GOP believe that Obama wants to adopt sharia law in the United States: //cbs4.com/campaign2010/obama.muslim.poll.2.1888841.html
When I first heard about the poll, I was highly skeptical. I knew that the Beck/Limbaugh/Coulter crew actively put forth the view that Obama (and Pelosi, etc., etc.) are not just wrong, but apparently knowingly evil, but the idea that a sitting American president is actively working to impose or incorporate islamic religious law into the fabric of the United States legal system, seems too outrageous even for the "Dems hate America" crew. But a quick Google showed me the error of my ways. Other GOP sites were putting for the alleged Obama/sharia connection and support the apparent results of the poll:
//righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2008/01/obamas-sharia-c.html
//www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1975499/posts
//www.newsrealblog.com/2010/08/13/barack-obama-the-sharia-law-president-endorses-the-911-mosque/
//www.politicususa.com/en/Top-5-Obama-Conspiracy-Theories
The Obama/sharia conspiracy, along with the rest of the communist/socialist/fascist/birther/manchurain candidate/etc. conspiracys are, frankly, insane - - and have no support outside of the promoters' own rambling diatribes. But that apparently doesn't prevent the hucksters from pitching them and from an apparent majority (or at least a scarily large proportion) of the self-identified Republican/Tea Party membership from swallowing these paranoid fever-dream fantasies hook, line and sinker.
The current GOP establishment/leadership (note, not the current "conservative" establishment/leadership, which, I would argue is an entirely different animal and which also seems to be small, withered and impotent on the political stage of recent years) is not content with simply disagreeing with Democrats/liberals/leftists/progressives/et al., but instead - whether truthfully (probably the minority, let's hope) or cynically (likely the majority) - insist upon painting Obama and the Democratic establishment as actively, intentionally Anti-American and Democratic/liberal policies as not just misguided, but deliberately constructed to ruin the economy, bring down the American system of democracy and effectively "enslave" and subjugate the "good" and "true" Americans (TM).
This type of approach is not just wrong-headed, it is dangerous (to governance, to civil order, and even to the long-term maintenance of the Republic itself).
The Democratic leadership needs to stop acting as if the other side is conducting the debate in good faith, they aren't.
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09/01/2010 01:27:10 PM · #18 |
Always best to go to the source: Newsweek Poll 8/27/10
Some people have alleged that Barack Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to
impose Islamic law around the world. From what you know about Obama, what is your opinion of these
allegations? Do you think they areâ€Â¦ (READ 1-4)
Current Rep. Dem. Ind.
7 Definitely true 14 3 5
24 Probably true 38 14 22
36 Probably not true, OR 33 37 37
25 Definitely not true? 7 42 28
8 (DO NOT READ) Don̢۪t know 8 4 8
100 100 100 100
Sorry the formatting sucks. It's question 24.
Sigh. This country will live or die by the survival of the "moderate Republican". Not that they have the answers, but that they are the only hope for a bridge between the divide. |
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09/01/2010 01:30:21 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm sure you know that you are only going to hear about the extreme candidates on the news, right? Who's going to mention the moderate Republican running in Maine or whatever? |
Perhaps the type of craziness that gets the headlines does not represent the mainstream of the GOP membership, but the problem is that those "moderate Republican" candidates/elected officials are not speaking out against the fringe that have grabbed the spotlight. The "Obama is a secret Muslim;" "Obama is not an American citizen;" "Obama is a communist/socialist/fascist;" "Democrats hate America;" etc. stuff gets put up as the mainstream Republican line, and none of the leadership steps up to correct that perception.
But, fundamentally, I don't know if I agree with you that the problem is simply one of perception. This stuff increasingly appears to come from the GOP leadership itself - Gingrich/Bachmann/Palin/Boehner/Tancredo/etc. |
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09/01/2010 01:46:03 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm sure you know that you are only going to hear about the extreme candidates on the news, right? Who's going to mention the moderate Republican running in Maine or whatever? |
Perhaps the type of craziness that gets the headlines does not represent the mainstream of the GOP membership, but the problem is that those "moderate Republican" candidates/elected officials are not speaking out against the fringe that have grabbed the spotlight. The "Obama is a secret Muslim;" "Obama is not an American citizen;" "Obama is a communist/socialist/fascist;" "Democrats hate America;" etc. stuff gets put up as the mainstream Republican line, and none of the leadership steps up to correct that perception.
But, fundamentally, I don't know if I agree with you that the problem is simply one of perception. This stuff increasingly appears to come from the GOP leadership itself - Gingrich/Bachmann/Palin/Boehner/Tancredo/etc. |
I'm not sure I'd consider Palin a GOP leader. At least not a leader of the elected. I'd be curious how many Republican congressmen, if they felt they could truly speak out, would consider her to be an idiot.
But you do have a point. The Republican's greatest strength is also their weakness. They manage to control their message and present a much more unified front than the Democrats ever could. This makes them appealing because they all speak with one voice. However, they are then prone to takeover from extreme views. This is why I pray for the moderate Republicans. If they get drowned out then the party is doomed to walk the path toward fascism and things will only get worse for us.
My 0.02, anyway.
Message edited by author 2010-09-01 13:46:53. |
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09/01/2010 01:48:12 PM · #21 |
| I don't know if anyone here subscribes to the YouTube channel NewLeftMedia, but their most recent video is a cut of a bunch of interviews Chase Whiteside did at that stupid rally in Washington. Those people are dumb, uneducated, and scary. Just the combination of attributes the US needs most in its citizens. I don't know how Chase manages to play the straight man to these insane people. Aside from being a simultaneously cool and hot interviewer, he must have an iron stomach. |
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09/01/2010 02:10:38 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't know if anyone here subscribes to the YouTube channel NewLeftMedia, but their most recent video is a cut of a bunch of interviews Chase Whiteside did at that stupid rally in Washington. Those people are dumb, uneducated, and scary. Just the combination of attributes the US needs most in its citizens. I don't know how Chase manages to play the straight man to these insane people. Aside from being a simultaneously cool and hot interviewer, he must have an iron stomach. |
Many people who attend rallies like that would be considered activists. When you get 500,000 activists together, you'll be able to find a quite a few of them to say some bizarre things, regardless of political affiliation. You could put together a similar video at a rally with Democratic leaders. You just need to do some selective editing to make sure only the strangest people are represented in the video. How many people were in the youtube video? A couple dozen? How many people were at the rally? Half of a million? I really doubt that the other 499,976 people would respond exactly the same way as those people in the video. But, I'm the kind of person that likes to believe that each person represents their own personal views. Certain other people apparently like to believe that a handful of people represent the views of hundreds of thousands of others. |
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09/01/2010 02:26:48 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Always best to go to the source: Newsweek Poll 8/27/10
Some people have alleged that Barack Obama sympathizes with the goals of Islamic fundamentalists who want to
impose Islamic law around the world. From what you know about Obama, what is your opinion of these
allegations? Do you think they areâ€Â¦
Current Rep. Dem. Ind.
7 Definitely true 14 3 5
24 Probably true 38 14 22
36 Probably not true, OR 33 37 37
25 Definitely not true? 7 42 28
8 (DO NOT READ) Don̢۪t know 8 4 8
100 100 100 100
Sorry the formatting sucks. It's question 24.
Sigh. This country will live or die by the survival of the "moderate Republican". Not that they have the answers, but that they are the only hope for a bridge between the divide. |
Bottom line: an astonishing 52% of self-identified republicans in this poll think the bolded statement above is "definitely" or "probably" true.
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09/01/2010 03:03:33 PM · #24 |
A lot can happen in 60 days. If I remeber correctly, John Kerry had a 10 point lead on GW Bush in that time frame and he ended up getting thrashed.
Not to say the Dems prospects aren't looking grim, but I'd wait until the election before handing over the gavel.
To  DrAchoo - Who besides a couple of Northeast Republicans that get called RINO and worse by their own party would you say is a moderate Republican? And if they truly are moderate, how are the faring with the Limbaughs and Becks of the world.
The closest I see is Grahamm from South Carolina who just got an official sanction from the state's Republican party for voting with the prersident on something. They didn't really care what it was, but if the President wanted they didn't. And it was something the GW Bush had promoted.
I think the GOP is in for a rude awakening even if they take a majority in one or both the chambers. All of of these people winning the GOP primaries are people the establishemnt GOP did not want and did not support. Miller in Alaska for example. You think this guy is going to toe the party line for a bunch of people that don't want him there?
The concept of political comprimise has been dead in the GOP since 1994. And it will get worse with the purging that's been going on within the GOP. Hard to get anything done since then.
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09/01/2010 03:25:15 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't know if anyone here subscribes to the YouTube channel NewLeftMedia, but their most recent video is a cut of a bunch of interviews Chase Whiteside did at that stupid rally in Washington. Those people are dumb, uneducated, and scary. Just the combination of attributes the US needs most in its citizens. I don't know how Chase manages to play the straight man to these insane people. Aside from being a simultaneously cool and hot interviewer, he must have an iron stomach. |
Many people who attend rallies like that would be considered activists. When you get 500,000 activists together, you'll be able to find a quite a few of them to say some bizarre things, regardless of political affiliation. You could put together a similar video at a rally with Democratic leaders. You just need to do some selective editing to make sure only the strangest people are represented in the video. How many people were in the youtube video? A couple dozen? How many people were at the rally? Half of a million? I really doubt that the other 499,976 people would respond exactly the same way as those people in the video. But, I'm the kind of person that likes to believe that each person represents their own personal views. Certain other people apparently like to believe that a handful of people represent the views of hundreds of thousands of others. |
First of all, my post said absolutely nothing about whether or not the interviewees represented any particular group, and secondly, I guess you simply ignored the previous stats where just one of the kooky ideas that came up in the video I linked to is believed by a majority of Republicans. Congrats on finding yourself to be so reasonable, though. |
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