America the Ignorant - DPChallenge Forums

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08/26/2010 08:44:22 PM · #76

Ah. I think you've helped with something I've been contemplating, and that is whether or not I should keep my house in Texas or sell it when the renter leaves.

The house is gonna go. :-)

George

Nikon D750

08/26/2010 08:45:26 PM · #77

Originally posted by Melethia:

The house is gonna go. :-)

How much? Also, happy belated birthday... sorry I wasn't on Facebook that day.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5G ED VR

08/26/2010 08:50:03 PM · #78

$1.95. :-)

No, I don't know how much. I'll have to see if there's even a market. May just take another renter, though the poor house has been through three already. I really do like the house. And I like San Antonio. I just don't care much for the Texas summers (which last, on average, 10 months of the year.)

Never have been overly fond of the politics, but then I really don't pay all that much attention, either.

George

Nikon D750

08/26/2010 08:54:42 PM · #79

Originally posted by Melethia:

$1.95. :-)

Sold. Just so I can rent it out, too ;). I'm in Eastern Europe and the summer weather here (similar to Jersey) is killing me... I can't imagine 10 months of worse-than-this.

scarbrd

Leica M10

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/26/2010 09:04:29 PM · #80

Originally posted by Melethia:

Ah. I think you've helped with something I've been contemplating, and that is whether or not I should keep my house in Texas or sell it when the renter leaves.

The house is gonna go. :-)

May not help. The Texas text books are used by roughly half the country. I choose to stay and fight these bozos from within.

Texas gave us Sam Rayburn, Lyndon Johnson, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan and others. We can do better than this.

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

08/26/2010 09:07:10 PM · #81

And Willie Nelson.

08/26/2010 09:26:09 PM · #82

Originally posted by George:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I would fully argue that these men would quite agree with the idea that "Christianity brought us these principles". Western Civilization, as we know it, has been shaped and formed by the precepts of Judeo-Christianity. There is absolutely no denying this fact. The 18th century American scholar would accept the grounding of most philosophical truth as being derived from God (the Christian God in most cases) as verily as they accepted the air they breathed.

So why did our founding fathers want separation of church and state so badly, if they believed that "Christianity brought us these principles"? Surely they'd want to maintain the church as a means of perpetuating those principles, as well as their faith (they were "good Christians," weren't they?).

The easy answer is they didn't want it nearly as bad as you might think or what they wanted was quite different than your possible assumption. I haven't talked to you long enough to know what your position is, but it is unlikely the founding fathers had in mind the concept that government should be devoid of all religious influence (as espoused by some modern atheists). Many people came to the New World because they didn't want to be members of the Church of England. The fathers wanted to make sure that you did not need to belong to any particular church or creed as a prerequisite to holding office. They did not want one religion (or more probably denomination) to be the de facto religion of the US Government. This did not mean at all that Christian principles were not the foundation upon which many US laws were based. The truth is that many were and I highly doubt the founding fathers were uncomfortable with this proposition as long as they were general and not specific to a particular sect.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

08/26/2010 09:36:37 PM · #83

Seems odd now that "freedom of religion" only applies as long as that religion is Christian. Yet we welcomed the Jews and condemned the Holocaust. What were we thinking? That just opened the door to Muslims and, God forbid - heathens! :-)

Also seems kinda odd that England is more secular than the US at this point. Or maybe it only seems that way; I have no facts to back that up.

I like the Diversity bumper sticker, with all the different symbols making up the letters. What a nice thought. Too bad it can't ever be.

Message edited by author 2010-08-26 22:04:10.

Leica 35mm f/1.4 Summilux M Aspherical MF - Black

08/26/2010 09:44:04 PM · #84

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I think it is revisionist to insist that "most" of the founding fathers were not Christian, that's patently absurd on the face of it. It is true that two of the most visible and remembered founding fathers (Franklin and Jefferson) were pretty much anti-clerical, at least, but that's not "most" by any stretch of the imagination.

Possibly an overstatement, but it's not easy to confirm either wayâ�� the religious beliefs of these people vary wildly depending on the reference source, and it's quite common to list a particular church affiliation based upon ANY historical connection. If some future blogger wanted to "prove" my Christianity, he could point to church attendance records or similar documentation to list me as Methodist or Catholic.

Regardless, many of the key architects of this country's early historyâ�� Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine and George Washingtonâ�� were deists. Not atheists, mind you, but generally rejecting the supernatural explanations and/or the idea of an interventionist god that Christianity requires. The Jefferson Bible notably removed all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story, while Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen each famously authored books arguing for reason over religion. Franklin rejected "belief in salvation, hell, Jesus Christâ��s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma," and asked Voltaire ("Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that ever infected the world") to bless his grandson. Attempts to link the likes of Jefferson, Franklin or Adams to a belief in anything resembling modern Christianity is an exercise in futility... and ignorance.

scarbrd

Leica M10

08/26/2010 10:13:16 PM · #85

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I think it is revisionist to insist that "most" of the founding fathers were not Christian, that's patently absurd on the face of it. It is true that two of the most visible and remembered founding fathers (Franklin and Jefferson) were pretty much anti-clerical, at least, but that's not "most" by any stretch of the imagination.

Possibly an overstatement, but it's not easy to confirm either wayâ�� the religious beliefs of these people vary wildly depending on the reference source, and it's quite common to list a particular church affiliation based upon ANY historical connection. If some future blogger wanted to "prove" my Christianity, he could point to church attendance records or similar documentation to list me as Methodist or Catholic.

Regardless, many of the key architects of this country's early historyâ�� Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine and George Washingtonâ�� were deists. Not atheists, mind you, but generally rejecting the supernatural explanations and/or the idea of an interventionist god that Christianity requires. The Jefferson Bible notably removed all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story, while Thomas Paine and Ethan Allen each famously authored books arguing for reason over religion. Franklin rejected "belief in salvation, hell, Jesus Christâ��s divinity, and indeed most religious dogma," and asked Voltaire ("Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that ever infected the world") to bless his grandson. Attempts to link the likes of Jefferson, Franklin or Adams to a belief in anything resembling modern Christianity is an exercise in futility... and ignorance.

A lot of them were Masons, too. And that opens up a whole other bag of goodies. Then there's the Apotheosis of Washington, a fresco inside the dome of the Capitol depicting George Washington becoming a god with the Roman goddesses Victory and Liberty by his side.

08/26/2010 10:13:30 PM · #86

Originally posted by scalvert:

I think this is ignorant in itself. You are using "deist" in its usage as rendered by Voltaire and French atheism. The deism of the US revolution had very little in common. Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Franklin all believed in a God that was an interventionist. I can easily come up with quotes that would be nonsensical if a "watchmaker God" was envisioned.

Thomas Paine: "I consider myself in the hands of my Creator, and that he will dispose of me after this life consistently with his justice and goodness" (Private Thoughts on a Future State)

Franklin (in reaction to Paine's "Age of Reason"): "I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion that . . . the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others.

Again Franklin: "Here is my creed. I believe in One God, the Creator of the Universe. That he governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render Him is doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion."

Jefferson: "...it is impossible I say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause, a fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the universe in its course and order... "

Now, let me be plain. Evangelical Christians of today would be very uncomfortable with many of the tenets held by many founding fathers. I am not trying to make that argument at all. BUT, I am saying we need to do away with this silly notion that the founders of our independence would agree with deism as we generally understand the term (and the one Shannon is giving). We should rather call them "unitarians" as they called themselves (never referring to themselves as "deists").

Message edited by author 2010-08-26 22:29:28.

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08/26/2010 10:27:34 PM · #87

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

This did not mean at all that Christian principles were not the foundation upon which many US laws were based.

This does:

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams

alanfreed

Nikon Z9

08/26/2010 10:28:27 PM · #88

Originally posted by scalvert:

A 2002 National Geographic/Roper poll ranked the U.S. next to last (slightly ahead of Mexico) in knowledge of geography.

Who cares what those Mexicans think, shivering away in their igloos all the way up there.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/26/2010 10:41:34 PM · #89

Poetry.

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams [/quote]

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

08/27/2010 12:10:21 AM · #90

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This did not mean at all that Christian principles were not the foundation upon which many US laws were based.

This does:

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson

â�� The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianityâ�¦ I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.â�� - John Adams

Seems like there's just as much confusion regarding the faith of the founding fathers as there is regarding the faith of Barack Obama.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

08/27/2010 12:13:37 AM · #91

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Nobody knows everything...

True enough, but that is not what the OP was advancing.

Ray

08/27/2010 12:22:47 AM · #92

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This did not mean at all that Christian principles were not the foundation upon which many US laws were based.

This does:

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson

â�� The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianityâ�¦ I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.â�� - John Adams

Seems like there's just as much confusion regarding the faith of the founding fathers as there is regarding the faith of Barack Obama.

I'm going to head you off at the pass Johnny. I'm guessing you would require a belief in the divinity of Christ to be a Christian. I doubt Franklin believed in it (although his answers are diplomatic dodges to the question) and I doubt Jefferson believed in it either. BUT, this doesn't put them in a camp completely alienated by Christianity. Adams, who may not fall into the category of Jefferson or Franklin, had this to say:

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard (scoundrel) Paine say what he will."

And:
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

In the end, it would be far more accurate to portray Jefferson, Franklin and company as "liberal Christians" than "deists" when using the modern meaning of both terms.

Message edited by author 2010-08-27 00:31:02.

08/27/2010 12:29:44 AM · #93

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson believed in the doctrines of Jesus as an ordinary human, NOT as a supernatural being. Accordingly, he trimmed the bible to remove all references miracles and supernatural events. Absent these, I doubt anyone would have a problem being a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, Socrates, or any other human.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

â��The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianityâ�¦ I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.â�� - John Adams

That quote was pieced together from snippets of a letter to give the misleading impression you're attempting here, as noted earlier in the thread.

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Seems like there's just as much confusion regarding the faith of the founding fathers as there is regarding the faith of Barack Obama.

The confusion is yours. In both cases it's called ignorance.

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/27/2010 12:32:38 AM · #94

You didn't respond to your own ignorance about the brand of "deism" practiced by the founding fathers Shannon (or whether it is deism at all). Got any quotes to back up a belief in a "noninterventionist God"?

Message edited by author 2010-08-27 00:32:58.

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

08/27/2010 12:42:08 AM · #95

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by johnnyphoto:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This did not mean at all that Christian principles were not the foundation upon which many US laws were based.

This does:

"[Our] principles [are] founded on the immovable basis of equal right and reason."- Thomas Jefferson

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."- John Adams

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." - Thomas Jefferson

â�� The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianityâ�¦ I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.â�� - John Adams

Seems like there's just as much confusion regarding the faith of the founding fathers as there is regarding the faith of Barack Obama.

I'm going to head you off at the pass Johnny. I'm guessing you would require a belief in the divinity of Christ to be a Christian. I doubt Franklin believed in it (although his answers are diplomatic dodges to the question) and I doubt Jefferson believed in it either. BUT, this doesn't put them in a camp completely alienated by Christianity. Adams, who may not fall into the category of Jefferson or Franklin, had this to say:

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard (scoundrel) Paine say what he will."

And:
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."

What it boils down to is there is no sure way of knowing whether any of the founding fathers were Christian. It can be (and it is) argued either way for any one of them, and it's probably a waste of time to do. At any rate the personal beliefs of the founding fathers certainly influenced the principles and laws of the United States, but the beliefs themselves are not law and they shouldn't be regarded as such. In modern Evangelical Christianity, belief in the divinity of Christ is a requirement. "Evangelical Christianity" as we know it today didn't exist 200+ years ago. Thomas Jefferson might not qualify as "Evangelical Christian" in modern terms, but he would certainly fit into one of the more liberal Christian camps. But even if he didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, he still professed to following the "doctrines of Jesus", so those doctrines must have influenced his personal beliefs. What I mean to say is that even if it could be proved that Jefferson was not a "born again" Christian, that would not disprove the fact that Christian principles probably influenced his personal and political opinions.

Canon EF 28-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/27/2010 12:50:49 AM · #96

I don't disagree with your last paragraph at all Johnny. Well said. It is as revisionist as anything else to contend that the founding fathers were alienated from and antagonistic toward Christianity. And we're talking about the extreme view. Many were devout Christians.

I've actually learned a lot on this thread and had previously given some credence to the "deism" argument, but further reading and education has opened my eyes to the ignorance (since that word seems to be en vogue in this thread) of the position.

johnnyphoto

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

08/27/2010 12:54:09 AM · #97

Originally posted by scalvert:

I never said anything to the contrary... just copied a quote.

Originally posted by scalvert:

That quote was pieced together from snippets of a letter to give the misleading impression you're attempting here, as noted earlier in the thread.

Exactly. You can take any quote out of context to argue whatever you want. You can take some quotes out of context to support the argument that one founding father believed X and you can take other quotes out of context to support the argument that another founding father believed Y. Either way, it's a complete waste of time. My advice to you is you should read through the personal correspondences of John Adams here and pick up a copy of John Adams by David McCullough and then decide for yourself whether or not Adams was a Christian. I haven't done as much research on the other fathers, but I'm sure you can find other resources for them.

08/27/2010 01:47:46 AM · #98

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You are using "deist" in its usage as rendered by Voltaire and French atheism. The deism of the US revolution had very little in common. Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Franklin all believed in a God that was an interventionist...

Voltaire was a close personal friend of Franklin, and the ideas of such "freethinkers" had loads in common. From the dictionary: Deism: 1. belief in the existence of a god on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism). 2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

"I am saying we need to do away with this silly notion that the founders of our independence would agree with deism as we generally understand the term (and the one Shannon is giving). We should rather call them "unitarians" as they called themselves (never referring to themselves as "deists").

Don't make me bust out the "I" word on you again...

"Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist"- Franklin

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"- John Quincy Adams

Arthur B. Bradford, who was an associate of Ashbel Green another Presbyterian minister who had known George Washington personally, wrote that Green, "often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist" and "The old fox was too cunning for Us.' He affirmed, in concluding his narrative, that from his long and intimate acquaintance with Washington he knew it to be the case that while he respectfully conformed to the religious customs of society by generally going to church on Sundays, he had no belief at all in the divine origin of the Bible, or the Jewish-Christian religion."

"Thomas Jefferson is perhaps one of the Founding Fathers with the most outspoken of Deist tendencies, though he more often referred to himself as a Unitarian. In particular, his treatment of the Biblical gospels which he titled The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth, but which subsequently became more commonly known as the Jefferson Bible, exhibits a strong deist tendency of stripping away all supernatural and dogmatic references from the Christ story." "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is."- Jefferson

I shouldn't even have to mention Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason"...

08/27/2010 01:53:50 AM · #99

Ya, I found that Franklin quote on my own. But it goes back, once again, to what is meant by the term. You fail to show any signs of a belief in a God that made the world then stepped back. The God they describe "governs" and "superintends" and "maintains" the universe. The God they also describe has a sense of "justice" and punishes evil while rewarding good. This, in no stretch of the imagination, describes the watchmaker God of Voltaire. Current atheists like Voltaire's God because he is irrelevant. Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, Adams would hardly contend that God is irrelevant to the world they live in.

EDIT: I would refer you to The Faiths of the Founding Fathers. Don't worry, it's a scholarly book not a religious one. In it, Franklin, for example is described as "among those deists who remained open to the possibility of Divine intervention or special providence in human affairs. As he wrote in an essay in the 1730s, God "sometimes interferes by His particular providence and sets aside the effects which would otherwise have been produced by...causes." (page 55)

It looks like I found a quote I had been searching for where Franklin dodges the divinity issue, "I have...some doubts as to his Divinity, tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, & think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble." Still he felt that Jesus had established the best system of morals and religion in the history of the world.

Message edited by author 2010-08-27 02:06:38.