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06/07/2010 05:44:37 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
You wanna be the best you have to beat the best. 2nd place is first loser no matter what the score is. |
Right on! Absolute scores mean nothing. However, a winner WILL be a winner, no matter if they got a 7 avg, or may be just a mid 5, as long as they did 'better' (note the relative term- 'better') than others, that's all that matters!
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 17:45:47. |
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06/07/2010 05:45:49 PM · #127 |
| FWIW, I can see encouraging people to look at images longer, but not tell or even suggest how they should score them. |
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06/07/2010 05:47:05 PM · #128 |
| FWIW, I see this moving towards a debate between socialism and democracy:-) |
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06/07/2010 05:47:57 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Prash:
FWIW, I see this moving towards a debate between socialism and democracy:-) |
OK lets vote on doing it my way! :-P |
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06/07/2010 06:00:15 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by Sirashley:
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Since that is the case, I argue that the curve distribution should be a standard bell curve, with the lower extreme being a 3 or a 4 and the upper extreme being a 10 , therefore I feel that the average score should really be either a 7 or a 7.5.. Now that's radical, I know... But I do think my logic is sound. |
That has nothing to do with logic, and everything to do with personal feelings. Rewarding average, i.e., mediocre, photography with a 7, or 7.5, makes the challenges worthless. What on earth is the point in entering when the potential for scoring a bland 5 disappears? There is none. Everyone's wonderful. Everyone's talented. Everyone gets a prize. Sounds kind of like kindergarten to me.
Thankfully, it'll never happen, but the average score must remain between 5 and 6. Most people are here to improve their skills, after all, and not be coddled. I think. |
You sir (Louis)... have thought RIGHT!
I come here to learn, and to improve. I can tell you that through many 4's and 5's, I am now really feeling like I am improving... There is a visible difference in my photography from 2 years ago to today, and I owe allot of that improvement to people like Louis and others who have given me harsh and honest criticisms... If Louis looks at my photo, and it doesn't move him at all, and he scores it a 3, then he did his job as a voter. He voted it honestly, and that's what I'm looking for. There are plenty of other websites where people will tell me how great my photography is. I also have plenty of family who will tell me how great it is, so I don't need people on here polishing a turd for me :)
Cory, I think what you are trying to do is very noble and uplifting. It feels very good to receive higher votes, and it certainly boosts morale. The issue I have with it is that we are asking people to vote higher than they regularly would. While I can certainly see the good in your cause, I think its much better to give people a hand up... rather than a hand out... Rather than asking people to vote higher, perhaps giving honest criticisms through comments and feedback is a better cause to champion for... |
Oh, do be clear.. I've suggested that for me, moving my scale up 1-2 points was appropriate. I'm not asking you to vote higher... I'm asking you to examine your voting, and to evaluate how you honestly feel about your voting..
Funny enough, the most positive response I've seen so far is a general pledge to at least comment on the lower scoring entries.. That, if nothing else, I consider a great success..
And, as Yo_Spiff did indeed experience recently... I will indeed leave you a 9 and a genuine, honest, and critical evaluation.. I don't see a conflict.
And I don't think I'm unfairly inflating scores as you seem to think I am attempting to do.. Rather, indeed, I feel as though I am finally scoring appropriately.. Although, admittedly, YMMV.. |
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06/07/2010 06:01:28 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
FWIW, I can see encouraging people to look at images longer, but not tell or even suggest how they should score them. |
Never told anyone anything :) But yes, I do suggest that you examine your thoughts about voting... Although, I'm sure you already have.. As it turns out, I've discovered that the popular wisdom just didn't work for me... Instead I found that I needed to vote with a different distribution if I wanted to feel "right" about it... And this thread was started for the purpose of sharing my happy new theology on voting, and to share my pledge with DPC, partially to keep me honest, and partially as an opportunity for like-minded individuals to join me..
Clearly this has degenerated into me making a defense of my reasoning and methodology, and clearly the opposition has fairly well managed to hi-jack the thread.. Still, I feel there has been good discussion on the point, and hopefully that will make a positive difference
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 18:05:03. |
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06/07/2010 06:12:48 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by farfel53:
O.K., I've read this whole thread to this point. I have to say I'm pretty much with Louis on this one. We don't need to be stroked or made to feel special. If you're a pro, just cash the check. If you're a "hobbyist", print it, frame it, give it to your mother in law so she can tell everyone how great you are. If all you're working for is a 5.8 average on DPC, most of the prople you tell that to will look at you like you're from Jupiter. Huh?
Vote on my pictures as you see fit, and I'll vote on yours, and comment if there's something special I see. If my picture hits you in the heart, reward me with a bigger number. If it's "meh", tell me with an average score. Is it a 5, or is it a 6? Who the F. cares? Don't fluff my score because you want me to feel better about myself. My wife loves me, my dog wags, and my son and grandson look up to me...I think. Life is grand.
I am a somewhat above average photographer, or so it seems from the people in my life. I want to be better...that's why I'm here. I want to know more, think clearer, shoot more intentionally, and process more toward a purpose...AND have some fun doing it. If you think giving me a 6 for an average instead of a 5 is going to help that...wonderful. Go nuts. But when my picture still scores 75th out of 280 I'll know I have a long way to go. |
Your statement implies that you feel a 6 instead of a 5 will discourage you from learning... I disagree, as I feel that rewards often get the best response.. But, then you seem to think that punishment is a better tool.. I just don't.. You can punish, I will reward.. We'll make a nice team effort out of this. :)
Just out of curiosity, did you train your puppy with treats or a boot? I'm going bet (hope?) that it wasn't the boot.. |
??? I didn't intend to make that implication, or indicate in anyway that I prefer punishment, or that my dog wags his tail our of fear. Wow.
No, I just think most of us here are adults and don't need to be petted. Don't give us milk, give us meat...so to speak. I just think inflating your average score in order to hand out warm-fuzzies is pretty milky. But that's just an opinion. |
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06/07/2010 06:22:03 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Just out of curiosity, did you train your puppy with treats or a boot? I'm going bet (hope?) that it wasn't the boot.. |
??? I didn't intend to make that implication, or indicate in anyway that I prefer punishment, or that my dog wags his tail our of fear. Wow.
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As per the implication.. That was partially due to your mostly agreeing with Louis who has made that argument..
I was pretty confident you didn't really think that punishment was better than rewards.. As it is, I think that the very act of entering is in effect a statement that you are looking for feedback regarding your art, and as such, if it is appreciated by me, why should I feel constrained to keep my voting a 5.5 to avoid "petting" the submitter... Hell lots of photos here compel me... I've been voting higher than 5.5 for challenge after challenge, and I would go back through and revise my votes lower, so that I would maintain that golden 5.5..
Yeah, I thought I was "doing it right" keeping it just at that perfect 5.5 average.. Guess what? I was way freaking wrong... So totally off base it's not even funny.. So, now after examining my habits, and my feelings and beliefs, the ethics and the math, I can quite conclusively say that for me, in order to make my votes match my true appreciation, I had to move my "average" up the scale a bit..
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 18:23:51. |
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06/07/2010 06:22:12 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Essentially, it means two things: you put disadvantage to 6 entry by ranking 5.5 entry also 6. |
I don't think you got the point. Absolute scores mean NOTHING:-) It's the relative ranking that counts. And I don't see how a 5.5 will become 6 but 6 will stay at 6 with the hypothetical situation we are discussing. 5->6, and 6->7. Their relative placement remains the same.
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Prash i also think you missed my point that you can not differentiate much with smaller scale. Think about it.
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Plus you are punishing enteries on which you did not vote and others voted on them with scale of 1 to 10. |
-> Talking just about my voting etiquette, I vote 100% in all challenges since I started following this 'style':-)
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If you vote 100% then it may be alright, but many do not vote 100% and yet say that i never vote anything below 4.
Originally posted by Prash:
Originally posted by zxaar:
So if scale of 1 to 10 is provided it is better idea to use it. |
Sure, please do so. Everyone has a right to vote as they like. There is no rule saying one must vote in the closed range [1...10]. Neither is there a rule that says one must vote in the closed range [4...10].
We are all different personalities, amounting to variations in voting etiquette. As long as we vote 'fairly' (and fairness is apparently relative on DPC;-), vote as you like!
Happy DPCing buddy! |
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.
PS: My average vote given is slightly above 6 (i guess) so i do give higher scores and lots of them. But i do not hesitate to give 1 when i think i shall.
People say no entry deserve 1. May be not but if i see something that i am fed up with i give 1. For example too much of drops and i think so then any drop is automatically 1 in my books. This is my way of saying change the formula now.
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06/07/2010 06:30:38 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.
PS: My average vote given is slightly above 6 (i guess) so i do give higher scores and lots of them. But i do not hesitate to give 1 when i think i shall.
People say no entry deserve 1. May be not but if i see something that i am fed up with i give 1. For example too much of drops and i think so then any drop is automatically 1 in my books. This is my way of saying change the formula now. |
Just FWIW, I haven't argued that giving 1's is wrong... I just don't really feel there should be at least one 1 per challenge..
And I really dislike your method of wholesale 1'ing anything you feel that you have seen too much, or as you put it that you are "fed up with".. That's really quite harsh... Did the photo really strike you as a 1? Or would it have been slightly more magnanimous to give it a fair score, one that was in line with how you felt about it.. (Unless someone really has issues, I do doubt that even the most cliche of shots when well executed, will really feel like a 1 to anyone..)
So while I will not say that voting 1 is bad, I do think your particular example is completely egregious....
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06/07/2010 06:36:55 PM · #136 |
Say there was a weekly challenge with 100 entries. You would have an average of 5.5 if you scored 10 photos at each level (1-10). I doubt there would be 10 photos deserving a 1, 2, 9, or 10. If the goal is to have your voting average 5.5, you would have to keep re-scoring until you got there. What if 50 people entered unprocessed snapshots? What if 50 people had great photos?
How can you start voting on a challenge with a "voting average" already in mind? |
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06/07/2010 06:46:19 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by zxaar:
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.
PS: My average vote given is slightly above 6 (i guess) so i do give higher scores and lots of them. But i do not hesitate to give 1 when i think i shall.
People say no entry deserve 1. May be not but if i see something that i am fed up with i give 1. For example too much of drops and i think so then any drop is automatically 1 in my books. This is my way of saying change the formula now. |
Just FWIW, I haven't argued that giving 1's is wrong... I just don't really feel there should be at least one 1 per challenge..
And I really dislike your method of wholesale 1'ing anything you feel that you have seen too much, or as you put it that you are "fed up with".. That's really quite harsh... Did the photo really strike you as a 1? Or would it have been slightly more magnanimous to give it a fair score, one that was in line with how you felt about it.. (Unless someone really has issues, I do doubt that even the most cliche of shots when well executed, will really feel like a 1 to anyone..)
So while I will not say that voting 1 is bad, I do think your particular example is completely egregious.... |
o it is harsh. It is meant to be harsh. You would ask why?? Because of the reason that there are people who just use 1 successful formula again and again. It is not their fault if something works. If it ribbons everytime they try why bother with anything else.
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06/07/2010 06:46:34 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Say there was a weekly challenge with 100 entries. You would have an average of 5.5 if you scored 10 photos at each level (1-10). I doubt there would be 10 photos deserving a 1, 2, 9, or 10. If the goal is to have your voting average 5.5, you would have to keep re-scoring until you got there. What if 50 people entered unprocessed snapshots? What if 50 people had great photos?
How can you start voting on a challenge with a "voting average" already in mind? |
Well at least in the unlikely case that 50% of the entrants are unprocessed snapshots, I will definitely act accordingly, and would hope that anybody would have the good sense to do as much. I would examine each fairly and score each based upon it's merit.. And that does probably mean my 2-5 keys would get used quite a lot.. |
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06/07/2010 06:48:10 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by zxaar:
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.
PS: My average vote given is slightly above 6 (i guess) so i do give higher scores and lots of them. But i do not hesitate to give 1 when i think i shall.
People say no entry deserve 1. May be not but if i see something that i am fed up with i give 1. For example too much of drops and i think so then any drop is automatically 1 in my books. This is my way of saying change the formula now. |
Just FWIW, I haven't argued that giving 1's is wrong... I just don't really feel there should be at least one 1 per challenge..
And I really dislike your method of wholesale 1'ing anything you feel that you have seen too much, or as you put it that you are "fed up with".. That's really quite harsh... Did the photo really strike you as a 1? Or would it have been slightly more magnanimous to give it a fair score, one that was in line with how you felt about it.. (Unless someone really has issues, I do doubt that even the most cliche of shots when well executed, will really feel like a 1 to anyone..)
So while I will not say that voting 1 is bad, I do think your particular example is completely egregious.... |
o it is harsh. It is meant to be harsh. You would ask why?? Because of the reason that there are people who just use 1 successful formula again and again. It is not their fault if something works. If it ribbons everytime they try why bother with anything else. |
Because someone will come along sooner or later with a "better waterdrop".. And then it's back to the drawing board for submitter #1 :) |
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06/07/2010 06:54:01 PM · #140 |
| Just to throw this out there my take on this is if you are waffling between a 5 or a 6? Give them a 6. I'd also like to say that for me a 5 is an average photo - period. 5.5 is an average photo on DP Challenge. What that says to me is that the DPC community as a whole is above average. Just my 2 cents (adjusted for inflation of course) |
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06/07/2010 07:15:45 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
This is the crux of whole thing. Let everyone be voting the way they like rather then trying to create an impression that somehow voting low is bad. It may be bad to one but may be alright to the one who is voting low.
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In my opinion, everyone is free to vote as they like. There will never be one single way of voting. Because we, as individuals, see different good and bad things in an image. I showed a candid shot of mine to a friend and the first thing he noticed was how part of the subject's shirt was tucked out, and that made the image worth an extra half point for that, while I hadn't even considered that:-)
And to be clear, and on the record, in this thread, all along, I have been saying that everyone is free to vote as they like. I am nobody (not  nobody;-) to question someone's voting etiquette. As I said before, that is too personal a thing to each member.
I repeat: I have a camera in hand.. not a torch (like Art Roflmao). I am here to shoot (with a camera), not burn villages (like Ken;-) or fight. I have plenty other people to fight with and reasons to fight for:-)
Again: Happy DPCing!
ETA: Falling back to what I mentioned about statistics, I still stick to the fact that a 'pure shift' in probability distribution function curve of votes from a given member does not and will not change the outcome of an event based on that distribution. You may argue all you want. But what's proven, is proven;-)
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 19:20:52. |
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06/07/2010 07:17:18 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
(adjusted for inflation of course) |
..inflation. LOL! |
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06/07/2010 07:20:05 PM · #143 |
I say let's re-vote on the last 1,000 challenges using a 6 as the only vote just to see if the results will change. ;p
Seriously though. I did this last year. I told myself that 6 was the new 5 and I used that for a while. After a few challenges I noticed I was giving 6's to photos I didn't think deserved a 6 but didn't deserve a 4 either so guess what happened? I came back to my original way of thinking/voting. Voting is an individual experience and anything you or anyone else says will not sway my voting/thinking. It all comes down to experience. Newbs will vote higher at first and as they gain experience they learn what to look for or what to ignore (which is way more important here on DPC) and lower their votes accordingly. It's a process we all go through after joining.
This should have been a private thing between you and yourself. ;) Posting about it and then asking others to join you makes it look like the voting here can be modified by certain groups of people and that can't be a good thing. Voting is private and should not be exposed as you have in this thread. |
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06/07/2010 07:24:36 PM · #144 |
CAUTION: It has just been brought to my attention that the more posts you put in this thread, the more your HDR III score will fall. The Supremo Council has stated that for each post here starting right now, a fraction 0.1 will be deducted from your instantaneous average score.
Don't tell me I didn't warn you. Now I am outta here!!! Have fun warriors!:-) |
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06/07/2010 07:25:45 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by Jac:
I say let's re-vote on the last 1,000 challenges using a 6 as the only vote just to see if the results will change. ;p
Seriously though. I did this last year. I told myself that 6 was the new 5 and I used that for a while. After a few challenges I noticed I was giving 6's to photos I didn't think deserved a 6 but didn't deserve a 4 either so guess what happened? I came back to my original way of thinking/voting. Voting is an individual experience and anything you or anyone else says will not sway my voting/thinking. It all comes down to experience. Newbs will vote higher at first and as they gain experience they learn what to look for or what to ignore (which is way more important here on DPC) and lower their votes accordingly. It's a process we all go through after joining.
This should have been a private thing between you and yourself. ;) Posting about it and then asking others to join you makes it look like the voting here can be modified by certain groups of people and that can't be a good thing. Voting is private and should not be exposed as you have in this thread. |
Yes, because talking about things publicly is bad isn't it?? That can possibly lead to all kinds of madness, like free thought.. Yep. Shouldn't be discussed. Sorry about that. |
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06/07/2010 07:26:34 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Prash:
CAUTION: It has just been brought to my attention that the more posts you put in this thread, the more your HDR III score will fall. The Supremo Council has stated that for each post here starting right now, a fraction 0.1 will be deducted from your instantaneous average score.
Don't tell me I didn't warn you. Now I am outta here!!! Have fun warriors!:-) |
Oh, I just about died laughing.. Very nice! :) |
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06/07/2010 07:36:04 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by Jac:
This should have been a private thing between you and yourself. ;) Posting about it and then asking others to join you makes it look like the voting here can be modified by certain groups of people and that can't be a good thing. Voting is private and should not be exposed as you have in this thread. |
Yes, because talking about things publicly is bad isn't it?? That can possibly lead to all kinds of madness, like free thought.. Yep. Shouldn't be discussed. Sorry about that. |
Jac, you can't be serious? Not a month goes by that somebody, somewhere in DPC, doesn't start a thread asking how to vote. There's absolutely NO negative impact to be had by an individual examining what is normally an internal process and trying to articulate why he does what he does. It can only be instructive. Cory has absolutely no power to force others to see it his way; he's just telling us how he sees it.
How can this be bad?
R.
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 19:36:26.
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06/07/2010 07:38:00 PM · #148 |
i think this could be modified and simplified into...
i pledge to spend 5 seconds examining a photo before voting. |
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06/07/2010 07:39:49 PM · #149 |
| dang, that would take too long |
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06/07/2010 07:41:34 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Now I think the results should be more of a bell curve starting at 4 and going to 10, leaving the peak (average) at about 7.5 or so.... |
Except for one thing.....regardless of what you think, the scale *IS* 1 through 10.
Originally posted by coryboehne:
I am definitely saying that a 4 is the lowest score I will give out without some really, really, unbelievably, undeniably good reason... |
So what you're saying here is the heck with the system that's been here like this for over 1000 challenges, tens of thousands of voters, and eight years?
You're going to vote your way and the heck with how it's structured in order to be reasonable and fair to all those people, over all this time, through all those challenges?
Who are you, and what makes you think that you have the answer to this problem which doesn't exist?
Originally posted by coryboehne:
So, now after examining my habits, and my feelings and beliefs, the ethics and the math, I can quite conclusively say that for me, in order to make my votes match my true appreciation, I had to move my "average" up the scale a bit.. |
Bravo! Well done! Nicely thought!
But what makes you think that others haven't reached their own similar conclusions?
Do you really think that you're smarter than the next guy? That your limited experience here is somehow more knowledge rich than so many others before you? Especially those that have been here for a long time and are successful with the work they do, not only as photographers, but as those who review images, vote and comment.....do you think you've come up with something that they all need to adopt, something that has never occurred to anyone before you?
What about the ratio from here on out? If everybody did what you propose, then their previous history is in error......or the voting from here on out will be in error.
Can we opt out? I've entered 222 challenges with the way it's been. I don't want people to all of sudden vote my score up a point. How can I measure my growth against the process that it's gone through over the past four years from here on if my average starts a steady, but gradual climb and I have to suspect that it's because of an artificial shift in voting instead of my own improvement?
Might I suggest that you take a good hard look at what Louis is saying, stop taking it as a personal affront, and see the sense and logic of it. Just the fact that you're so aggressively arguing against what he's saying kind of indicates that he's pointing out some things that although you may not agree with them, are unerringly true.
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