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05/26/2010 03:32:58 PM · #1 |
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05/26/2010 03:47:56 PM · #2 |
| So how soon will it be before we start attacking Apple and its closed system architecture as the great evil. Jobs dressed in black in his mountain lair counting up his money gotten from squeezing all the money form artists over at iTunes, while Gates gives away his fortune to immunize children in Africa. |
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05/26/2010 04:43:33 PM · #3 |
They're already doing it.
And all the philanthropy in the world won't fix the infliction of bad policy after bad policy that Microsoft put on the world.
Apple hasn't changed a thing in their philosphy about how an operating system should be developed and maintained. Same for the development process on the platform.
Squeezing money from the artists, heh - that's rich. Ask the artists if they want Apple's deal or the deal they get from big record companies. |
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05/26/2010 04:56:32 PM · #4 |
At this point it means the price of the stock is overvalued.
Edit: For those who like numbers (as of close today):
Microsoft
Dividend Yield = 2.08%
PE or 13.5
Return on Equity = 41.83%
Trading at low/mid end of 52 week range
Apple
Dividend Yield = 0%
PE = 20.8
Return on Equity = 33.97%
Trading at top of 52 week range
Leaving out the emotion which would you rather invest in at the moment?
Message edited by author 2010-05-26 17:09:51. |
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05/26/2010 05:36:34 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
At this point it means the price of the stock is overvalued.
Edit: For those who like numbers (as of close today):
Microsoft
Dividend Yield = 2.08%
PE or 13.5
Return on Equity = 41.83%
Trading at low/mid end of 52 week range
Apple
Dividend Yield = 0%
PE = 20.8
Return on Equity = 33.97%
Trading at top of 52 week range
Leaving out the emotion which would you rather invest in at the moment? |
Seeing as the analysts say Apple stock could reach $400 and most are neutural on Microsoft.
And Apple has 0 debt and $23B in cash compared to Microsoft has $6B in debt and $31B in cash, I'd say the smart money is on Apple. I bought Apple at $30 some time ago, it's split since then and is trading in the $250 range. Best return in my portfolio.
As long as we're talking numbers and not emotions, although I do get pretty emotional over a 1600% increase. ;-)
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05/26/2010 05:48:50 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
So how soon will it be before we start attacking Apple and its closed system architecture as the great evil. Jobs dressed in black in his mountain lair counting up his money gotten from squeezing all the money form artists over at iTunes, while Gates gives away his fortune to immunize children in Africa. |
Not defending Apple here but Bill Gates' so called charity is pushing GMO ag. on developing counties which in turn forces them into debt to companies like Monsanto which now basically has a seat on the B&MG foundation overseeing supposed crop improvements in Africa by forcing them to use more chemicals and to grow untested, unsafe and PATENTED GMO seeds. |
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05/27/2010 08:39:19 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
[Seeing as the analysts say Apple stock could reach $400 and most are neutural on Microsoft.
And Apple has 0 debt and $23B in cash compared to Microsoft has $6B in debt and $31B in cash, I'd say the smart money is on Apple. I bought Apple at $30 some time ago, it's split since then and is trading in the $250 range. Best return in my portfolio.
As long as we're talking numbers and not emotions, although I do get pretty emotional over a 1600% increase. ;-) |
Yup, I rode that wave with MS some years ago. They all end eventually. You might have noticed that Apple is no longer the top market cap today and MS was upgraded to outperform. My biggest worry with Apple at the moment would be if anything happens to Jobs. Without him the stock will crash. At the moment enjoy the ride. |
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05/27/2010 10:14:03 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
[Seeing as the analysts say Apple stock could reach $400 and most are neutural on Microsoft.
And Apple has 0 debt and $23B in cash compared to Microsoft has $6B in debt and $31B in cash, I'd say the smart money is on Apple. I bought Apple at $30 some time ago, it's split since then and is trading in the $250 range. Best return in my portfolio.
As long as we're talking numbers and not emotions, although I do get pretty emotional over a 1600% increase. ;-) |
Yup, I rode that wave with MS some years ago. They all end eventually. You might have noticed that Apple is no longer the top market cap today and MS was upgraded to outperform. My biggest worry with Apple at the moment would be if anything happens to Jobs. Without him the stock will crash. At the moment enjoy the ride. |
Now THAT is something to worry about. Right or wrong the stock will go down if Jobs leaves suddenly. I probably will sell the next time I re-allocate. It has been a good ride, but you have to take the profit at some point and invest in something else on the upswing.
But the turn around at Apple over the last 10 years has been nothing short of spectacular. |
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05/28/2010 12:03:41 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
But the turn around at Apple over the last 10 years has been nothing short of spectacular. |
Yes it has and all due to his return. He might be a pain in the ass to work with but you can not deny the results. |
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05/28/2010 01:06:55 AM · #10 |
| Devil's advocate here... Might be a good time to by Microsoft stock. |
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05/28/2010 11:25:35 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Devil's advocate here... Might be a good time to by Microsoft stock. |
Not with their current state of affairs, IMO.
They have nothing compelling in the product pipeline. MS has halted projects around a tablet (Courier), the Zune line is underperforming with little or no prospects, XBox has never been very profitable, and I think they are overly optimistic with their 30 million unit sales projection with Windows Mobile 7 launch next year. Windows mobile has little market place presence for applications, and no eco-structure to enhance its growth. RIM, Android and iPhone will continue to dominate.
MS's profit strategy seems to revolve around upgrades to their core products of Windows and Office. That's more of a status quo strategy than a growth strategy. Enterprise adaptation of Windows 7 has been slow. Vista adoption in the enterprise was almost non-existent.
The Enterprise licensing is so convoluted that they make it difficult for business to have an upgrade strategy. We sent one of our people to a 3 day class at Microsoft. The course was Microsoft Licensing. Any licensing structure that requires a 3 day class to understand is too complicated.
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05/28/2010 01:39:02 PM · #12 |
I've been hearing that MS sucks since the early 80s...usually from people that purchased Macs. I remember one artist I worked with purchased a Mac that he used the old Aldus (now Adobe) PageMaker. I used Pagemaker on an IBM 386 computer. I also used his. Mine had a 14" color monitor.
I remember him telling me how great his MAC was as he squinted at that tiny built in screen. |
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05/28/2010 01:54:40 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been hearing that MS sucks since the early 80s...usually from people that purchased Macs. I remember one artist I worked with purchased a Mac that he used the old Aldus (now Adobe) PageMaker. I used Pagemaker on an IBM 386 computer. I also used his. Mine had a 14" color monitor.
I remember him telling me how great his MAC was as he squinted at that tiny built in screen. |
That cuts both ways between MS and Mac haters. I use both, I prefer the Mac for a number of reasons. I make my living supporting and developing MS and SAP technologies.
From an investment standpoint, I've owned both stocks, more shares of MS than of Apple. By a huge margin, I̢۪ve made more money on Apple stock than on MS. I've also owned Adobe, and other tech stocks, as well as industrials, finance, pharmaceuticals and mutual funds.
If you let your personal feelings either way enter into your investment strategy, you're doing it wrong.
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05/28/2010 02:37:45 PM · #14 |
I've been using PC/MS software since the days of dos 2.** or it may be 3.** not sure. I've also worked for companies that had Apple machines using Quark Express.
Both systems have their advantages/disadvantages. While I'm not a big MAC person, I have 3 ipods, my kids each have and ipod and one daughter has an Iphone. I also purchased my wife and IPAD for Mother's Day....and I can't even remember the last Windows product I purchased.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been hearing that MS sucks since the early 80s...usually from people that purchased Macs. I remember one artist I worked with purchased a Mac that he used the old Aldus (now Adobe) PageMaker. I used Pagemaker on an IBM 386 computer. I also used his. Mine had a 14" color monitor.
I remember him telling me how great his MAC was as he squinted at that tiny built in screen. |
That cuts both ways between MS and Mac haters. I use both, I prefer the Mac for a number of reasons. I make my living supporting and developing MS and SAP technologies.
From an investment standpoint, I've owned both stocks, more shares of MS than of Apple. By a huge margin, I̢۪ve made more money on Apple stock than on MS. I've also owned Adobe, and other tech stocks, as well as industrials, finance, pharmaceuticals and mutual funds.
If you let your personal feelings either way enter into your investment strategy, you're doing it wrong. |
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05/28/2010 02:43:51 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been using PC/MS software since the days of dos 2.** or it may be 3.** not sure. I've also worked for companies that had Apple machines using Quark Express.
Both systems have their advantages/disadvantages. While I'm not a big MAC person, I have 3 ipods, my kids each have and ipod and one daughter has an Iphone. I also purchased my wife and IPAD for Mother's Day....and I can't even remember the last Windows product I purchased.
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I think that's been the key to thier success lately, while still coming out with computers, applications and OS improvements, they've really captured the consumer market with the iPod, iPhone, iPad. Some speak of the "halo" effect. Meaning that people who don't own Apple computers, but purchase iPads/iPods/iPhones and have a positive experience will consider a Mac computer purchase in the future.
Mac sales have been increasing quarter over quarter, even in the down economy. Many credit the consumer products for the computer success. |
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05/28/2010 02:47:16 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not with their current state of affairs, IMO.
They have nothing compelling in the product pipeline. MS has halted projects around a tablet (Courier), the Zune line is underperforming with little or no prospects, XBox has never been very profitable, and I think they are overly optimistic with their 30 million unit sales projection with Windows Mobile 7 launch next year. Windows mobile has little market place presence for applications, and no eco-structure to enhance its growth. RIM, Android and iPhone will continue to dominate. |
In the late 90's the general investment wisdom was to avoid Apple. No compelling products, yada, yada. Anyone buying Apple stock then was considered to be throwing money away. In addition, Apple is generating some very bad public opinion lately that shows them to now be just like any other corporate entity. I would not count MS out of this game. You might be surprised.
Message edited by author 2010-05-28 14:47:27. |
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05/28/2010 03:11:54 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Not with their current state of affairs, IMO.
They have nothing compelling in the product pipeline. MS has halted projects around a tablet (Courier), the Zune line is underperforming with little or no prospects, XBox has never been very profitable, and I think they are overly optimistic with their 30 million unit sales projection with Windows Mobile 7 launch next year. Windows mobile has little market place presence for applications, and no eco-structure to enhance its growth. RIM, Android and iPhone will continue to dominate. |
In the late 90's the general investment wisdom was to avoid Apple. No compelling products, yada, yada. Anyone buying Apple stock then was considered to be throwing money away. In addition, Apple is generating some very bad public opinion lately that shows them to now be just like any other corporate entity. I would not count MS out of this game. You might be surprised. |
I bought stock when Jobs came back.
Tell me what you see in MS's offerings over the next 6 - 24 months that would merit anyone investing in them.
I see thier product roadmap as part of my job. Apart from upgrading Windows and Office, I don't see a thing that looks promising. And to me that equals flat or slightly higher growth. They are pretty well saturated in the enterprise market, and their consumer division has been under performing for years.
We manage $1.5M+ in spend with MS licensing. We are looking for ways of reducing that, not increasing it. |
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05/28/2010 03:12:18 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been using PC/MS software since the days of dos 2.** or it may be 3.** not sure. I've also worked for companies that had Apple machines using Quark Express.
Both systems have their advantages/disadvantages. While I'm not a big MAC person, I have 3 ipods, my kids each have and ipod and one daughter has an Iphone. I also purchased my wife and IPAD for Mother's Day....and I can't even remember the last Windows product I purchased.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been hearing that MS sucks since the early 80s...usually from people that purchased Macs. I remember one artist I worked with purchased a Mac that he used the old Aldus (now Adobe) PageMaker. I used Pagemaker on an IBM 386 computer. I also used his. Mine had a 14" color monitor.
I remember him telling me how great his MAC was as he squinted at that tiny built in screen. |
That cuts both ways between MS and Mac haters. I use both, I prefer the Mac for a number of reasons. I make my living supporting and developing MS and SAP technologies.
From an investment standpoint, I've owned both stocks, more shares of MS than of Apple. By a huge margin, I̢۪ve made more money on Apple stock than on MS. I've also owned Adobe, and other tech stocks, as well as industrials, finance, pharmaceuticals and mutual funds.
If you let your personal feelings either way enter into your investment strategy, you're doing it wrong. |
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Might it be said then, too, that Apple has been a higher risk stock in recent times?
I'm not saying it hasn't performed, don't get me wrong. But really, your aims in investment are important to determining what is the best place to put your money. Just because your choice worked out favorably, doesn't mean it, as a company, is a wise choice. Nor am I saying MS is; it has been relatively consistent, true (and thus appeals to many portfolios), but its market share has been wavering too. Yin and Yang, eh? |
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05/28/2010 03:20:35 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been using PC/MS software since the days of dos 2.** or it may be 3.** not sure. I've also worked for companies that had Apple machines using Quark Express.
Both systems have their advantages/disadvantages. While I'm not a big MAC person, I have 3 ipods, my kids each have and ipod and one daughter has an Iphone. I also purchased my wife and IPAD for Mother's Day....and I can't even remember the last Windows product I purchased.
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I've been hearing that MS sucks since the early 80s...usually from people that purchased Macs. I remember one artist I worked with purchased a Mac that he used the old Aldus (now Adobe) PageMaker. I used Pagemaker on an IBM 386 computer. I also used his. Mine had a 14" color monitor.
I remember him telling me how great his MAC was as he squinted at that tiny built in screen. |
That cuts both ways between MS and Mac haters. I use both, I prefer the Mac for a number of reasons. I make my living supporting and developing MS and SAP technologies.
From an investment standpoint, I've owned both stocks, more shares of MS than of Apple. By a huge margin, I̢۪ve made more money on Apple stock than on MS. I've also owned Adobe, and other tech stocks, as well as industrials, finance, pharmaceuticals and mutual funds.
If you let your personal feelings either way enter into your investment strategy, you're doing it wrong. |
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Might it be said then, too, that Apple has been a higher risk stock in recent times?
I'm not saying it hasn't performed, don't get me wrong. But really, your aims in investment are important to determining what is the best place to put your money. Just because your choice worked out favorably, doesn't mean it, as a company, is a wise choice. Nor am I saying MS is; it has been relatively consistent, true (and thus appeals to many portfolios), but its market share has been wavering too. Yin and Yang, eh? |
Perhaps, and as I said, I'll be looking to move out of it soon. But success is success. You have to look at the short and long term plans for a company. Whether you like Macs or not, Apple has continually introduced new products, sometime creating entirely new markets, putting in the infrastructure to support the products (see iTunes Store) and relentlessly upgrading the products and services. Add to that outstanding marketing plans, good financial governance, and strong management and you've got a winning formula. Currently, I don't see any of that from MS. The current Windows 7 marketing campaign is pretty good, but that was after the Seinfeld disaster, and the campaign that mentioned Apple and HP more than they did Microsoft.
Message edited by author 2010-05-28 15:21:29. |
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05/28/2010 03:27:50 PM · #20 |
I agree generally. I also think a quality product stands on its own and does not need gimicky marketing. The other thing is that Apple has not "continually" introduced revolutionary products. As has been stated, Apple was a dead company and was revived. This doesn't decrease their success, but it negates your statement. As I said, Apple has been a very successful relatively high risk investment. You invested in a time tha they were a dead boat and Jobs pulled them out and did great things in the market. My point is how many other equal choices did you have at the time that would have failed?
As with all investments, one equivocal summation doesn't work. You have to consider your aims and intents in investment and weigh them before you say one way or the other. Would you base your 401K on a stagnant tech company? I think not. Is it great for increasing yield? Yes, definitively. The two cannot be equated with each other, different means for different ends... |
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05/28/2010 03:42:20 PM · #21 |
I dont care what the fanboys say, MS stuff does me lovely.
Apple make nice gadgets & phones. |
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05/28/2010 03:52:56 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Simms:
I dont care what the fanboys say, MS stuff does me lovely.
Apple make nice gadgets & phones. |
Why are people who prefer Apple computers "fanboys"?
What do you call people who prefer Windows?
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05/28/2010 04:11:43 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I agree generally. I also think a quality product stands on its own and does not need gimicky marketing. The other thing is that Apple has not "continually" introduced revolutionary products. As has been stated, Apple was a dead company and was revived. This doesn't decrease their success, but it negates your statement. As I said, Apple has been a very successful relatively high risk investment. You invested in a time tha they were a dead boat and Jobs pulled them out and did great things in the market. My point is how many other equal choices did you have at the time that would have failed?
As with all investments, one equivocal summation doesn't work. You have to consider your aims and intents in investment and weigh them before you say one way or the other. Would you base your 401K on a stagnant tech company? I think not. Is it great for increasing yield? Yes, definitively. The two cannot be equated with each other, different means for different ends... |
I didn't say "revolutionary", I said "new". I leave hyperbole to others.
When Apple was a "dead" company, they were still in the Fortune 100. Yes, they were haveing thier issues, but they were still selling product.
And if analyzing a company's potential by investing when they bring in a CEO that had just had success launching Pixar and had a highly developed producting offering in Next (that became OS X), and thinking that this might be a good thing is just "luck", well then I guess I was lucky.
I also bought 2000 shares of Enron when it was at $.30 after they crashed and sold it for $1.75. I guess that was lucky too. My portfolio went down after the banking collapse, but I was diversified enough that it came back faster than some other people's I know.
I'm no investing genious, but I do my homework and don't invest on emotion.
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05/28/2010 04:12:19 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by tehben:
Originally posted by Simms:
I dont care what the fanboys say, MS stuff does me lovely.
Apple make nice gadgets & phones. |
Why are people who prefer Apple computers "fanboys"?
What do you call people who prefer Windows? |
I call them uninformed. ;-) |
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05/28/2010 04:19:36 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by tehben:
Originally posted by Simms:
I dont care what the fanboys say, MS stuff does me lovely.
Apple make nice gadgets & phones. |
Why are people who prefer Apple computers "fanboys"?
What do you call people who prefer Windows? |
I call them uninformed. ;-) |
hahaha...
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