Team photos...CD distribution concerns. Valid?

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2010 10:39:44 AM · #1

Hey All.

Over the past several years I've shot action photos at my son's soccer games, also including candid moments at practices, etc... By the end of the season I'll have several hundred photos posted that I've shared with the parents in a private (password protected) gallery. I've always uploaded the photos in a 4x6 format and made them available for purchase. Usually a handful of parents would take advantage and make some purchases. Not a money maker - never intended to be.

Well after being asked again this year if I'd take the team photos (individual and team shots) I went ahead and said yes - my first official paid gig. :) That has all gone quite smoothly and I've made enough $$$ to just about cover a new lens I've been wanting.

I think because of the increased exposure to my website over this, I'm getting numerous requests about making the action photos from the season available on a CD for purchase, rather than individually as 4x6 prints. I can understand the desire to have these in a digital format (picture frames, digital sharing with family & friends, etc...).

My question...should I have any concerns over any potential legal issues selling CD's like this? There are photos of all of the kids on the soccer team in them (plus their competitors on other teams during play). I'd certainly make a nice little bonus doing this...but I'm generally cautious and don't want to miss some angle I haven't seen.

I know some of you are doing this currently. Any issues? Any advice? CD's "OK" to sell and distribute to parents?

Your feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Barry

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/12/2010 03:50:54 PM · #2

I'm not a lawyer, but my mom worked on making L.A. Law ... ;-)

If the pictures were taken at a public venue, you can sell them on a non-commercial or editorial basis without releases -- I would interpret this to include "individual physical representations" of the image, such as a print or a viewable file, slideshow, etc. The newspaper can print it as part of their news coverage, but not in an ad for the team sponsor.

What you could not do would be to use the images in a commercial manner such as posting as a stock image, printing up calendars or greeting cards or other "bulk" reproductions.

The same restrictions would apply to anyone to whom you sell a CD or print -- you retain the copyright, and they cannot reproduce the image, especially not for commercial purposes. I would include a copyright statement/explanation right on the CD label, as well as in a text and/or PDF document on the disc itself.

If you're starting to make some money at this, you might want to invest in some books on the subject -- you can write them off against your income (IRS 1040 Schedule C) without being an official business as long as you are not claiming a loss.

PS: You *might* (or might not) want to check with league officials to see what if any photo release language may be included in whatever waiver or other paperwork you all had to sign before the season.

Message edited by author 2010-05-12 15:53:43.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2010 05:03:45 PM · #3

Thanks Paul. Some great points of consideration written there.

I knew the photos couldn't be used commercially without proper releases, etc...

I like your thoughts on a copyright statement on the CD label and on the disc in the form of a PDF document.

Other points are being absorbed as well...

Thanks again!

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

05/12/2010 06:20:56 PM · #4

To craft the statement you need to first make a list of rights you want to grant. Can they

-email to relatives
-make their own prints
-post to their website(s)
-etc.

Otherwise, a simple statement of
"All Photos Copyright Â© {date} {name/business name} â�¢ Unauthorized reproduction in any form prohibited."
should suffice.

Message edited by author 2010-05-12 18:21:24.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/13/2010 12:54:08 AM · #5

you're on the right track in terms of licensing; just keep in mind, once you distribute something, you pretty much lose control over it.

before you go too much further, take some time to explore the business side of what you're doing, especially in terms of where you might be going. consider just how much time you want to put into it and how much you'll get out of it (in terms of enjoyment and revenue). a lot of times, these things can snowball into something a lot more complicated than the hobbyist had in mind. but, as long as have a clear picture as to what you're willing to commit to and realistic expectations as to what you can get out of it, you can have some fun and pick up some extra gear money.

just keep in mind, if someone sees you making money, they might be tempted to try to make some, too...and that can change everything. i have a couple friends that do something very similar to what you're talking about. they keep it real simple and don't try to attract a lot of attention, mainly shooting for parents and not making a big fuss about marketing. they seem to be doing alright and having fun.

you might also want to talk to

karmat, as i think she does a lot of little league stuff.

good luck!

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

05/13/2010 09:22:30 AM · #6

Thanks again Paul - I have a book or two now that has info on the "business" side of photography and forgot I had the material...I'm going into research/learning mode as we speak. :-)

Skip - Thanks for the advice also. I see how one thing can lead to another in this. Some of the parents on my son's soccer team happen to coach other teams (little league baseball and girls softball). One of these other parent coaches has been very supportive and encouraging, offering some business shooting his own team's photos. I've politely said no at this point letting him know I'd like to see this one thru first (the process and printing, etc...). He understood 100% and said he will be coaching for a long time yet and to let him know when I'm available.

What kind of pushed me over the edge to go ahead and do it this season was twofold: last season the team went with a photographer friend and the deal wasn't prints, but a CD instead. I wasn't too keen on that so we skipped and I just took my own "team" photo of my son in uniform and piggy-backed from the side on the team group photo. Then when we got back the photos from my son's basketball team shots this year I was extremely disappointed...I knew without a doubt I could do much better.

Team shooting isn't something I'd want to do a lot of, but a few gigs each season would be a nice $$$ supplement. As to others' out there doing the same thing - they're out there already.

I just want to do it right and provide results to be proud of and that I can stand behind with confidence.

MattO

Nikon D4

05/13/2010 10:03:24 AM · #7

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I'm not a lawyer, but my mom worked on making L.A. Law ... ;-)

If the pictures were taken at a public venue, you can sell them on a non-commercial or editorial basis without releases --

Actually that may not be the truth.

If the organization is paying a fee to use the otherwise public field, then the event is covered under private venue while that is taking place. This has been challenged many times and always stands. You must have approval of the organization that is paying the fees in order to be able to use photos for anything other then editorial or personal use.

Matt

Luci11e

Nikon D40

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G IF-ED VR

05/13/2010 10:12:50 AM · #8

Good info y'all !

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II

05/13/2010 11:37:11 AM · #9

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm not a lawyer, but my mom worked on making L.A. Law ... ;-)

If the pictures were taken at a public venue, you can sell them on a non-commercial or editorial basis without releases --

Actually that may not be the truth.

If the organization is paying a fee to use the otherwise public field, then the event is covered under private venue while that is taking place. This has been challenged many times and always stands. You must have approval of the organization that is paying the fees in order to be able to use photos for anything other then editorial or personal use.

Matt

I've read and reread all of the forms and materials presented to both parents and coaches and haven't found anything remotely related to photography issues. It's a county run program and the playing venues are usually county owned parks or county public school fields.

MattO

Nikon D4

05/13/2010 11:42:32 AM · #10

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by GeneralE:
I'm not a lawyer, but my mom worked on making L.A. Law ... ;-)

If the pictures were taken at a public venue, you can sell them on a non-commercial or editorial basis without releases --

Actually that may not be the truth.

If the organization is paying a fee to use the otherwise public field, then the event is covered under private venue while that is taking place. This has been challenged many times and always stands. You must have approval of the organization that is paying the fees in order to be able to use photos for anything other then editorial or personal use.

Matt

I've read and reread all of the forms and materials presented to both parents and coaches and haven't found anything remotely related to photography issues. It's a county run program and the playing venues are usually county owned parks or county public school fields.

If the players and parents signed paperwork and paid to participate then the venue is considered Private during game and practice times, on a legal standpoint. There may or may not be a photo release so the county can use the photos to promote the league or venue in the future. You need to talk to the county parks dept(at least that is who runs those programs in my area) to find out specifics about selling the photos. They may not care, many don't. However if they have a contract with any photo service for league wide Team and Individual photos there may or may not be wording in their contract that is signed by the parks dept regarding sole rights to sell photos. I have run into this before. Just trying to keep you from running into an issue that I have seen before.

Matt