Legality of Nik Silver Efex for basic challenges

05/04/2010 10:01:39 PM · #51

Originally posted by iamwoman:

Just trying to clarify if Silver Efex High Contrast Orange Filter - applied with no moving of sliders etc is legal in Basic?

Nope. If you look at Photoshop's history after you apply the filter, you'll see that it creates data layers, which is currently illegal in Basic.

Retroesque

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

05/04/2010 10:04:29 PM · #52

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by iamwoman:
Just trying to clarify if Silver Efex High Contrast Orange Filter - applied with no moving of sliders etc is legal in Basic?

Nope. If you look at Photoshop's history after you apply the filter, you'll see that it creates data layers, which is currently illegal in Basic.

Thank you SO MUCH for such a quick response! Saves a DQ later for me!

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

05/04/2010 10:18:36 PM · #53

Well, I should qualify this. Someone has informed me that only the Photoshop version is illegal. SilverEfex for Lightroom or Aperture would be legal because those apps don't USE data layers. The disparity is an unfortunate consequence of the rules.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 22:18:57.

Retroesque

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

05/04/2010 10:19:21 PM · #54

Originally posted by scalvert:

Grrrrr - damn me for buying the Photoshop version - GRIN!

love

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

05/04/2010 10:43:38 PM · #55

Originally posted by scalvert:

You can change the settings of the PS plugin so that it only applies the filter selected to the background layer and doesn't create a new layer. This was discussed at length in the recent landscape challenge.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

05/04/2010 10:45:30 PM · #56

Originally posted by love:

Originally posted by scalvert:
Well, I should qualify this. Someone has informed me that only the Photoshop version is illegal. SilverEfex for Lightroom or Aperture would be legal because those apps don't USE data layers. The disparity is an unfortunate consequence of the rules.

You can change the settings of the PS plugin so that it only applies the filter selected to the background layer and doesn't create a new layer. This was discussed at length in the recent landscape challenge.

You can? Oh I'm so glad! I just spent $200 that I shouldn't have, and I'd hate to think I couldn't use it half the time.

Hey Scalvert -- is this acceptable then?

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 22:45:52.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

05/04/2010 10:46:25 PM · #57

Originally posted by love:

But how could you prove that for validation? I don't have this software...I'm only curious.

05/04/2010 11:08:04 PM · #58

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by love:
You can change the settings of the PS plugin so that it only applies the filter selected to the background layer and doesn't create a new layer. This was discussed at length in the recent landscape challenge.

Hey Scalvert -- is this acceptable then?

Ah I see it now. Yes, that would be legal.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 23:08:20.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

05/04/2010 11:08:38 PM · #59

Shannon, Nik Silver Efex was ruled "OK" a while back, I thought? ALL of the conversions, even the basic "don't do anything except "neutral" with no adjustments" conversion use layers. Has this been reverted back to a no-go? If so, I have a lot of entries that will need to be disqualified. Enough that I won't be able to enter challenges ever again. Which could be a good thing....

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

05/04/2010 11:10:27 PM · #60

Also note that the STANDALONE (LR) version of Silver Efex does not have built in layer capability nor does it involve PS.

05/04/2010 11:17:37 PM · #61

Originally posted by Melethia:

Shannon, Nik Silver Efex was ruled "OK" a while back, I thought? ALL of the conversions, even the basic "don't do anything except "neutral" with no adjustments" conversion use layers.

Any filter that's allowed is still subject to the rest of the Basic editing rules. If it involves selections or layers other than Adjustment Layers, then it's illegal. However, as Barry alluded, we'd have a hard time proving you didn't switch the default settings to a single layer mode...

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

05/04/2010 11:22:10 PM · #62

You know, I asked this question back on 2/13/2010 (Ticket #18258) and here is the dialog that Neil Shapiro and I had on the subject. I hope it doesn't muddy the playing field.

Alice

Inquiry 18158 2/13/2010

----- Original Message (DPC:18158) -----

Hi -

A while back, in the forums it was announced that Topaz filters were okay to use as long as (I paraphrase) the integrity of the image was maintained.

Has any ruling on Nik plugins been made? I specifically think of global adjustments in Viveza and the sharpening or noise reduction programs. Some of the Color and Silver Efex can be used globally and only seem to change color and the usual saturation/contrast/etc sliders.

I'd just like a ruling on this before I use any of the Nik programs in a Basic Editing Challenge.

Many thanks,

Alice

PS If you think I should put this question in a Forum, I will do so, of course.

a.

Answer:

----------------------------------------------
Alice,

Nik is ok in Basic as long as you don't use the U-point technology, or use other functions which apply obvious masks, like the vignette function in Color Efx. I would be careful about any filter in there though which can be interpreting as violating the integrity of the content/context of the original image.

At least for the Lightroom version of Viveza, I don't think there's any function to it that doesn't require the use of u-points, other than maybe the global shadow highlight control that's in all their programs. (Though I don't have the very recent version of Viveza, so maybe they've changed it.)

Regards--Neil
---------------------------------------------
clarification question:

Thanks, Neil.

Are "U-Points" the same as "Control Points"?

Viveza2 has global: Bright, Contrast, Saturation, Structure, Shadow-Highlights,
Warm, Red, green, blue slider adjustments. And then it has Control points where you can
adjust these selectively. The Control Points obviously would not do in Basic.
This stuff is all in the Photoshop version. I don't have Lightroom.

The Silver Efex program that helps with Black & White conversions is my major concern right now.
It is much easier to master than the Photoshop methods. All the adjustments can be global. and they are (for example) Overexpose, High Structure, pull process, high contrast and the like. (They can also be used selectively but again, I understand - not in Basic.)

back to the question: if these are global adjustments, not involving "Control Points" and assuming that "Control Points" are the same as "U-Points" then I'm safe?

(You can guess that I *hate* to be DQed if it can be avoided)
:-))

thanks again,

Alice

-----------------------------------
Answer:

Yep...sorry, I was thinking of the Nikon name for them.

The LR version of Viveza (Version 1) doesn't do any global adjustments at all.

"back to the question: if these are global adjustments, not involving
"Control Points" and assuming that "Control Points" are the same as "U-Points"
then I'm safe?"

There's no such thing as "safe" in Basic anymore (it used to be any legal tool could be used anyway). Now, with more filters allowed, you still have to protect image integrity. And of course, don't allow vignettes to come into play.

But yes, you can use Nik Silver Efx as long as you follow those rules. You should be fine, but if you are unsure, you can submit a before and after side by side composite and we can reply. But in general, don't worry, be happy.

Regards--Neil

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

05/04/2010 11:27:43 PM · #63

Clear as mud on a cold day. Just DQ me from the site. Will be best, I think. :-)

(No, seriously. My contributions as far as challenge entries have been entirely lame and useless. I could still comment and stuff, that would be OK.)

Lonni

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/04/2010 11:43:54 PM · #64

ARGH!! This is really bad timing! I have an entry in that uses SilverEfex Pro with only global adjustments (no control points). I know quite a few people who have questioned the legality of this in basic, and all have been given the OK.

I only just noticed this thread, with less than an hour till rollover. I have re-edited with just PS convert to B&W, and I'm nowhere near as happy with the results.

So, do I submit the inferior image, or the superior one and risk a DQ? Not enough time to think this through properly!

millsa

Nikon D7100

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

05/04/2010 11:47:49 PM · #65

I submitted my B&W landscape, which used Silver EfexPro, for clarification before I entered it. I only used the global sliders and it was deemed to be fine at the time.

There seems to be a little disparity in the system, if I can see the program used layers to make global adjustments then its bad, if a program uses layers in the background without showing you its fine. For example I can't do high pass sharpening myself, but coral photo paint has it built in so its OK even though it does the same thing! Which goes for USM too as I understand it, its not really an even effect.

Maybe the rule should be "you can use layer masks or U-point's" and away goes all the confusion? I would say no layer blending too but most of the "filter" tools do this in background aswell!

ScooterMcNutty

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/04/2010 11:50:45 PM · #66

Originally posted by Lonni:

i would not be the one to ask. although i would say to go with the one that goes with the rules, or your gut instinct. that probably doesnt help though...

salmiakki

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

05/04/2010 11:54:49 PM · #67

As has been stated already, you can change your settings in Nik Silver efex so it doesn't apply it on a new layer. It's in the settings option.

millsa

Nikon D7100

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

05/05/2010 12:01:39 AM · #68

Originally posted by salmiakki:

As has been stated already, you can change your settings in Nik Silver efex so it doesn't apply it on a new layer. It's in the settings option.

Yes but there is no difference! It was stated in another thread you are allowed to keep your background layer untouched so you can revert back when you mess up, and edit on a second layer. Not selecting that option in NIK does exactly the same thing.
If I had it at work I'd try it, but I bet when you hit OK you see it create several working layers that get merged down to the background layer just like you see if you don't make the apply effect to current layer selection.

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

05/05/2010 01:22:53 AM · #69

This is a big 'ol disparity.. How funny, I can use it in lightroom, but not in PS... *shakes head*

Message edited by author 2010-05-05 01:28:23.

Lonni

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/05/2010 01:27:28 AM · #70

Well I decided to play it safe and submit me non-silver efex version. Pity though - because the silver efex version was much better.

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

05/05/2010 01:39:12 AM · #71

Lonni, Nik Silver is legal in basic. Stick to global adjustments and it's legit. I've had a handful or so validated since the rule change last year.

Lonni

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/05/2010 08:04:34 AM · #72

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Lonni, Nik Silver is legal in basic. Stick to global adjustments and it's legit. I've had a handful or so validated since the rule change last year.

Thanks - that's really disappointing though that I felt compelled to submit an inferior edit just to be safe. I guess no-one's going to let me substitute it now, huh? :)

Retroesque

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

05/05/2010 08:13:21 AM · #73

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Lonni, Nik Silver is legal in basic. Stick to global adjustments and it's legit. I've had a handful or so validated since the rule change last year.

Ben - not real familiar with all the terms - can you explain 'stick to global adjustments?' Is that just pressing the button and not changing the sliders? Or is it only choosing certain types of the filters on offer?

Any help greatly appreciated.

bohemka