How stupid are religious leaders?

04/29/2010 11:36:10 AM · #201

Originally posted by David Ey:

You worship your pope. Do you not kneel before him, kiss his hand, etc.?

Really? I never seen my pope let alone worshipped him. I suppose I would bow before him and kiss his ring if I meet him. It's customary to kiss the ring of a bishop, but its more to show honor to his position and apostalic line.

I don't think it is worshipping. He ~~can~~ can't grant special powers or save me from damnation.

Do people in England worship the queen when they bow to her and kiss her hand?

Edit: Typo: can to can't
He can't grant special powers. I swear I reread it before posting. My eyes read "can" but my brain thought "can't"

Message edited by author 2010-04-29 16:04:18.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/29/2010 11:49:15 AM · #202

Originally posted by Louis:

That's because he's the guy on earth with the red phone connected directly to god. He's god's mouthpiece, hence making everything he says infallible.

Go figure.

Everything he says is not infallible. He's just a person and a sinner. In fact, Pope John Paul II went to confession daily which shows the pope isn't always infallible.

The Pope is infallibility only when it comes to church doctrine.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

04/29/2010 12:21:30 PM · #203

Originally posted by Louis:

That's because he's the guy on earth with the red phone connected directly to god. He's god's mouthpiece, hence making everything he says infallible.

Go figure.

I'm not even catholic and I know that not everything the Pope says is taken as infallible.

Bear_Music

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04/29/2010 12:58:02 PM · #204

See wiki for an overview of the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility: it's not even close to what most people think it is. It only pertains to Church doctrine, as Nullix pointed out, and not even all Church doctrine at that. Plus, it's a relatively new concept, having first come into existence in 1870.

R.

GeneralE

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04/29/2010 01:00:51 PM · #205

Originally posted by Nullix:

It's customary to kiss the ring of a bishop, but its more to show honor to his position and apostalic line.

I don't think it is worshipping. He can grant special powers or save me from damnation.

If that's not a typo I want to sign up for some special powers too ... ;-)

Message edited by author 2010-04-29 14:28:18.

Louis

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04/29/2010 02:23:15 PM · #206

Yeah -- [ex-]Catholic boy here, I know infallibility extends only to church doctrine. And it's just as dumb as if it didn't.

DrAchoo

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Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

04/29/2010 03:02:06 PM · #207

Originally posted by Louis:

Yeah -- [ex-]Catholic boy here, I know infallibility extends only to church doctrine. And it's just as dumb as if it didn't.

Well, I don't disagree with you, but I have enough fights with those outside the church to start picking them within... ;)

Stagolee

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04/29/2010 04:26:44 PM · #208

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Is the pope catholic?

04/29/2010 06:15:11 PM · #209

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Also, when one considers all of the items used during mass in a Roman Catholic church, one would seriously wonder whether they are reading the same book.

Really? Which items? I know we have a crucifix and candles. I know there's the "Stations of the Cross" to remember the passion of the crucifixion. A statue of Mary and Joseph. Also a statue of Jesus and his sacred heart in the entry way.

These aren't idol. We don't worship the crucifix, paintings, or statues. They're just like reminders.

Of course you don't... and one doesn't genuflect in the aisle, or kneel when the priest holds the body of Christ aloft, or get rosaries, crosses and scapulars of a host of saints blessed, and pray before the statue of the Virgin Mary...

To you these items are simply reminders, yet Christians of various persuasions would consider similar items used by others as falling within the realm of "Idols"... funny that eh?

Ray

Message edited by author 2010-04-29 18:25:01.

04/29/2010 06:54:08 PM · #210

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by Louis:
That's because he's the guy on earth with the red phone connected directly to god. He's god's mouthpiece, hence making everything he says infallible.

Go figure.

Everything he says is not infallible. He's just a person and a sinner. In fact, Pope John Paul II went to confession daily which shows the pope isn't always infallible.

The Pope is infallibility only when it comes to church doctrine.

The bold portion of your comment has nothing to do with "Infallibility" and everything to do with the fact that all are sinners.

Your last comment is right on the money, assuming one buys that argument, and judging by the practices of most Catholics vis-a-vis contraception, then it could be argued that a good portion of the church goers either think the Pope is wrong, or simply don't care.

Ray

04/29/2010 08:09:21 PM · #211

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Also, when one considers all of the items used during mass in a Roman Catholic church, one would seriously wonder whether they are reading the same book.

Originally posted by Nullix:
Really? Which items? I know we have a crucifix and candles. I know there's the "Stations of the Cross" to remember the passion of the crucifixion. A statue of Mary and Joseph. Also a statue of Jesus and his sacred heart in the entry way.

These aren't idol. We don't worship the crucifix, paintings, or statues. They're just like reminders.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Of course you don't... and one doesn't genuflect in the aisle, or kneel when the priest holds the body of Christ aloft, or get rosaries, crosses and scapulars of a host of saints blessed, and pray before the statue of the Virgin Mary...

To you these items are simply reminders, yet Christians of various persuasions would consider similar items used by others as falling within the realm of "Idols"... funny that eh?

If anybody holds the body of Christ aloft, I would think it's expected to I kneel or genuflect.

I own a few rosaries and use them for prayer on a daily basis, but it's more of a tool for counting prayers (try praying the rosary without one).

Originally posted by Nullix:

The Pope is infallibility only when it comes to church doctrine.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
...assuming one buys that argument, and judging by the practices of most Catholics vis-a-vis contraception, then it could be argued that a good portion of the church goers either think the Pope is wrong, or simply don't care.

"Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your church"

People may think it's wrong. They may not have a clue. They may not care. Those are cafeteria Catholics. That doesn't change church doctrine.

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05/02/2010 09:30:48 AM · #212

Originally posted by Nullix:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Also, when one considers all of the items used during mass in a Roman Catholic church, one would seriously wonder whether they are reading the same book.

Originally posted by Nullix:
Really? Which items? I know we have a crucifix and candles. I know there's the "Stations of the Cross" to remember the passion of the crucifixion. A statue of Mary and Joseph. Also a statue of Jesus and his sacred heart in the entry way.

These aren't idol. We don't worship the crucifix, paintings, or statues. They're just like reminders.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Of course you don't... and one doesn't genuflect in the aisle, or kneel when the priest holds the body of Christ aloft, or get rosaries, crosses and scapulars of a host of saints blessed, and pray before the statue of the Virgin Mary...

To you these items are simply reminders, yet Christians of various persuasions would consider similar items used by others as falling within the realm of "Idols"... funny that eh?

If anybody holds the body of Christ aloft, I would think it's expected to I kneel or genuflect.

Ah but you see, therein lies the problem... what you consider to be the body of Christ I consider nothing more than a piece of unleavened bread, which you seemingly idolize...so we are back at square on on this issue.

Originally posted by Nullix:

I own a few rosaries and use them for prayer on a daily basis, but it's more of a tool for counting prayers (try The Pope is infallibility only when it comes to church doctrine.
praying the rosary without one).

And pray tell, why do you keep count? Is there like a magic number you have to arrive at before your prayers count... Does your God or Church have a quota you have to meet? Similarly, how did believers pray before the invention of beads?... could it be that these are simply the product of a marketing ploy by the church?

Originally posted by RayEthier:

...assuming one buys that argument, and judging by the practices of most Catholics vis-a-vis contraception, then it could be argued that a good portion of the church goers either think the Pope is wrong, or simply don't care.

Originally posted by Nullix:

"Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your church"

People may think it's wrong. They may not have a clue. They may not care. Those are cafeteria Catholics. That doesn't change church doctrine.

I might be apt to lend this a great deal more credence were it not for the fact that the Catholic church has made numerous changes in its own doctrine in the last 40 to 50 years. It could be argues that what you label as "Cafeteria Catholics" were at the leading edge of advancement which took the church out of the stone age and brought it more in line with the realities of today.

Have a great day,

Ray

Bear_Music

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05/02/2010 11:07:45 AM · #213

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Similarly, how did believers pray before the invention of beads?... could it be that these are simply the product of a marketing ploy by the church?

Ermmm... I'm pretty sure beads predate the Catholic Church, Ray :-) Or do you mean, "Before the invention of rosaries"?

R.

ETA: In any event, the Rosary beads are part of the ritualized Veneration of Mary, which has been around since the 16th century or so. The beads, by allowing you to keep count without occupying your mind, leave you free to concentrate on the Blessed Mysteries...

R.

Message edited by author 2010-05-02 11:16:42.

05/03/2010 12:06:05 PM · #214

Originally posted by Nullix:

If anybody holds the body of Christ aloft, I would think it\'s expected to I kneel or genuflect.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

I can\'t help you there without derailing this thread more.

Originally posted by Nullix:

I own a few rosaries and use them for prayer on a daily basis, but it\'s more of a tool for counting prayers (try The Pope is infallibility only when it comes to church doctrine.
praying the rosary without one).

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Nothing magical about it. Just part of the beautiful private devotion. There no quota involved and not required at all. Marketing ploy...that's a laugh.

While praying the rosary, you reflect on each mystery of Christ's life. Just look up Mysteries of the Rosary to get them all.