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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> IMAGE Banding - Nikon D80 - NEF RAW and JPG
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04/28/2010 01:41:40 PM · #1
Hi all, I've scoured the web and not come across this specific problem, have you? Your thoughts?
Image was taken on a Nikon D80 with an 8Gb SDHC Class 6 card. This happens every so often, no pattern.
It's the first time in the history of the camera and card that have worked flawlessly for 22 months.
The card has always been formatted in camera, never via the Operating System.
This happens IN-CAMERA before being uploaded.
If you have questions about what lens it was taken with, what brand card, battery life, has it happened with other cards, etc I can answer those.
If you look carefully you can see that the original image is partially visible behind the banding.
Also the banding stays on the long edge on the bottom of the image if held normally, horizontal landscape.
Any knowledgeable information would be most valuable, thx, Harvey.


Message edited by author 2010-04-28 13:43:02.
04/28/2010 02:08:32 PM · #2
I've seen this effect in jpegs before, it happens when some bytes in the file gets corrupted. But I've never seen it in NEFs. Do you shoot NEF+JPEG, and do both files have this error? If they do, I'm suspecting you have some problems with the communication between the image sensor and the memory card. If they don't, it's probably the memory card. Did you try with another card?
04/28/2010 02:16:07 PM · #3
Not that I'm a Nikon, or DSLR expert by any means, but... I am fairly good at thinking through systems, and locating the point of failure...

Essentially I think we've got two real options here.. One is that the data isn't leaving the sensor correctly, or the data is being garbled during the processing or writing phase.

What I find interesting is that it's only the last 15% of the image that is corrupted, and there does still seem to be data that is from the image.

---------------------

Here's my question to you, do you find this to happen in cool or hot weather, or perhaps when switching between cool and hot (that stresses connections, and can often cause connection failures... This is why admins like myself really dislike shutting down, or rebooting servers that have been running for years, the thermal shock of cooling down for a few minutes can, and often does, kill components..)

In any case, I fear you're in a bad spot, as Nikon probably won't want to help unless it occurs fairly regularly, and diagnosis of intermittent problems is extremely challenging.

04/28/2010 05:44:24 PM · #4
This is called banding? I thought banding was caused by gradation in colours like in a sky. It looks like a rainbow but without the pretty colours.

Have you tried another card? Borrow one if you don't have another. Or go to a store and ask to use their demo in your camera.
04/28/2010 07:10:19 PM · #5
Like Cory, I think that we have to think about possible points of corruption. Try to compartmentalize, then construct tests to rule out each step in turn. Let's start with what we do know...
- We know that it appears in-camera, so eliminate file transfer corruption (cam to computer)
- We know that it appears in both RAW and JPEG images, so eliminate the process of in-camera JPEG conversion; the corruption apparently exists *prior* to conversion.
Now the second point above is interesting. If the corruption truly exists prior to conversion, then that eliminates the card from consideration, as well as the interconnection from the camera to the card. Confirming this would be a very good idea, and it might perhaps be simple. Shoot with the camera in RAW+JPEG mode, and when you get a partly corrupted shot, look carefully at the RAW file and the in-camera JPEG; do they have the exact same pattern of corruption? If so, then it is *certain* that the corruption is happening in-camera, prior to JPEG conversion. In that case, it is probably an issue with sensor readout or the ADC (Analog to Digital Conversion) process. Either way, it would be a trip to the manufacturer for the camera body.
04/28/2010 07:23:08 PM · #6
Enjoy it, and enter in one of the contests that allows borders.
04/29/2010 06:22:37 AM · #7
Looks to me like a sensor issue, or a connection to the sensor. If it is happening intermittently i'd say that something has come loose from a PCB somewhere (unless the CMOS array itself is damaged), be it a cable or more likely a BGA component has come loose from the board partially, meaning that when the pcb is just the right temperature to flex itself a tiny bit or the camera has been bumped it would occur.

What is your warranty like on the camera? This is going to need to be repaired by a professional.
04/29/2010 10:22:33 AM · #8
If it is your sensor and you need to send it in - I'm currently having a really good experience with the company I mention in this thread. So far, the service is A+.

Skid
04/30/2010 03:26:05 AM · #9
Originally posted by hanserik:

I've seen this effect in jpegs before, it happens when some bytes in the file gets corrupted. But I've never seen it in NEFs. Do you shoot NEF+JPEG, and do both files have this error? If they do, I'm suspecting you have some problems with the communication between the image sensor and the memory card. If they don't, it's probably the memory card. Did you try with another card?


Thanks for your reply. I've shot NEF only and JPG only and a combination of both. It happens intermittently in all modes. I have tried other memory cards, all 8Gb SDHC Class 6, Kingston, Hoodman and Transcend, happens on all of them but intermittently. Many images are recorded fine but every now and then a few will show up this anomaly.
04/30/2010 03:27:44 AM · #10
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Here's my question to you, do you find this to happen in cool or hot weather, or perhaps when switching between cool and hot (that stresses connections, and can often cause connection failures... This is why admins like myself really dislike shutting down, or rebooting servers that have been running for years, the thermal shock of cooling down for a few minutes can, and often does, kill components..)

In any case, I fear you're in a bad spot, as Nikon probably won't want to help unless it occurs fairly regularly, and diagnosis of intermittent problems is extremely challenging.


Thanks for your reply. I've shot in various climates from cold to hot, dry to humid for 22 months with no previous problems. It happens intermittently without a logical pattern. As far as Nikon are concerned, I will speak to them today as I'm on my way there to collect a repaired D100 and will take a sample pic with me.

Message edited by author 2010-04-30 03:28:19.
04/30/2010 03:29:53 AM · #11
Originally posted by Issus:

Looks to me like a sensor issue, or a connection to the sensor. If it is happening intermittently i'd say that something has come loose from a PCB somewhere (unless the CMOS array itself is damaged), be it a cable or more likely a BGA component has come loose from the board partially, meaning that when the pcb is just the right temperature to flex itself a tiny bit or the camera has been bumped it would occur.

What is your warranty like on the camera? This is going to need to be repaired by a professional.


Sounds about right to me..
04/30/2010 03:30:08 AM · #12
Originally posted by Jac:

This is called banding? I thought banding was caused by gradation in colours like in a sky. It looks like a rainbow but without the pretty colours.

Have you tried another card? Borrow one if you don't have another. Or go to a store and ask to use their demo in your camera.


Thanks for your reply. Banding is the word I used, but I suppose I could have used noise, corruption etc. The image I posted is unambiguous and shows the problem in the hope that someone else has experienced the same. I've tried various new and older used cards. The camera has done under 4000 images since purchase.
04/30/2010 03:32:25 AM · #13
Originally posted by kirbic:

Like Cory, I think that we have to think about possible points of corruption. Try to compartmentalize, then construct tests to rule out each step in turn. Let's start with what we do know...
- We know that it appears in-camera, so eliminate file transfer corruption (cam to computer)
- We know that it appears in both RAW and JPEG images, so eliminate the process of in-camera JPEG conversion; the corruption apparently exists *prior* to conversion.
Now the second point above is interesting. If the corruption truly exists prior to conversion, then that eliminates the card from consideration, as well as the interconnection from the camera to the card. Confirming this would be a very good idea, and it might perhaps be simple. Shoot with the camera in RAW+JPEG mode, and when you get a partly corrupted shot, look carefully at the RAW file and the in-camera JPEG; do they have the exact same pattern of corruption? If so, then it is *certain* that the corruption is happening in-camera, prior to JPEG conversion. In that case, it is probably an issue with sensor readout or the ADC (Analog to Digital Conversion) process. Either way, it would be a trip to the manufacturer for the camera body.


Thanks for your reply. I've shot both NEF and JPG and the corruption appears identical. Your logic that the ADC is causing trouble could well prove to be accurate. Nikon here I come. I hope the technicians there are helpful today.
04/30/2010 03:33:12 AM · #14
Originally posted by David Ey:

Enjoy it, and enter in one of the contests that allows borders.


LOL! But other than tickling my funny-bone I doubt DPC voters would be as accommodating!
04/30/2010 03:34:15 AM · #15
Originally posted by Issus:

Looks to me like a sensor issue, or a connection to the sensor. If it is happening intermittently i'd say that something has come loose from a PCB somewhere (unless the CMOS array itself is damaged), be it a cable or more likely a BGA component has come loose from the board partially, meaning that when the pcb is just the right temperature to flex itself a tiny bit or the camera has been bumped it would occur.

What is your warranty like on the camera? This is going to need to be repaired by a professional.


Thanks for your reply. I've mused about the dry-joint theory. It should be a simple matter to fix that. Nikon here I come. Edit: Warranty expired 10 months ago.

Message edited by author 2010-04-30 06:11:44.
04/30/2010 03:36:25 AM · #16
Originally posted by kenskid:

If it is your sensor and you need to send it in - I'm currently having a really good experience with the company I mention in this thread. So far, the service is A+.

Skid


Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid I'm in deepest darkest Africa and whilst I'd enjoy another trip to the States, financial meltdown has curbed that for a while :) However if I don't come right with Nikon South Africa, I could ship it there. Thank you for your "lead" and recommendation.
05/17/2010 05:38:47 PM · #17
I handed it in on May the 14th to the local Nikon Approved Agent. The D80/D90 technician, when he saw the image immediately said "CCD!" Upon quizzing him he expounded "possible loose connection on the CCD"
So let's see, will keep you posted.
06/17/2010 08:16:09 AM · #18
Over a month later and still waiting for parts...that is, for the CCD.
06/17/2010 08:25:12 AM · #19
Originally posted by Magnum_za:

Over a month later and still waiting for parts...that is, for the CCD.


Bummer. Sorry to hear that... hopefully it won't be much longer; I'm sure the wait has been agonizing. So did they determine it was a total CCD failure or connection?
What were you quoted?
08/05/2010 08:17:36 PM · #20
I'm so glad I found this thread. I couldn't find any other evidence that anyone else was having this problem.

Almost this exact same problem is happening with me and my d80 - the only difference is that all pictures appear to be totally fine when I view them on the camera, and even the corrupted .NEFs that have this exact sort of banding and corruption still appear to be totally fine when viewed in a folder as icons (as opposed to list view, detail view, et cetera). It's completely bizarre.

I've tried uploading the pics on two different Macs running different versions of Leopard - never had problems with either of these before. All of a sudden last week this starts happening randomly to some of my photos - maybe 5-10% of them on any given shoot. There isn't any apparent rhyme or reason to it at all - I can take 12 shots of a person in the same location with the same exact camera settings and only one out of those 12 will have an issue.

Magnum_za, have you heard anything back yet? I certainly hope you have your camera back and fixed by now...

Does anyone know of any other cases of this? I want to learn as much as possible about what it could be before I have to take it before Nikon...

Here's an example to show you - you can see that the .nef preview is messed up, but the thumbnail image is totally fine. Also I should mention, I can't even open this .nef in photoshop. I get an unexpected end-of-file error.

Edit: Apparently I can't post urls here, so please just paste this into your address bar to see an image of what I'm dealing with. :)

thescenarios.org/pics/argh.png

Message edited by author 2010-08-05 20:18:53.
08/06/2010 03:10:51 AM · #21
Finally feedback!
I got the camera back a month ago after Nikon SA replaced the CCD (they gave me the old faulty one back too) I have now used the camera on a field trip to the KNP and taken about 100 shots. So far so good, no repeat of this error.
incandenza, your link to argh.png (LOL at filename) is almost exactly what I had and in the same position too on the sensor. I rate it's also a faulty sensor. Mine cost me about ZAR3500-00 to replace. At the time that was about USD $460-00. Since the D80 only had about 5000 actuations after 2 years of use I felt it was a worthwhile spend.

Message edited by author 2010-08-06 03:12:09.
08/06/2010 04:17:02 AM · #22
When I first purchased my 7d I ran across a similar problem when loading images to the computer with a cardreader. Only affected a few images. It was the same card reader that I had been using for the 40d but the larger files obviously weren't happy with the card reader and became corrupted. I initially thought it was new 7d.

I found if I transferred the same pics directly from the camera without the card reader they were fine. I don't know if you are using a card reader but if you are I would suggest you try transferring the same pics directly from they camera and see if you have the same problem.

Maybe, like me, you need to upgrade your cardreader. I purchased a Lexar Professional UDMA Compact Flash SD Reader (USB2) and have not had a problem since. Also, the pics load waaaaaay faster.

Cheers
08/06/2010 05:36:55 AM · #23
Originally posted by RamblinR:

When I first purchased my 7d I ran across a similar problem when loading images to the computer with a cardreader. Only affected a few images. It was the same card reader that I had been using for the 40d but the larger files obviously weren't happy with the card reader and became corrupted. I initially thought it was new 7d.

I found if I transferred the same pics directly from the camera without the card reader they were fine. I don't know if you are using a card reader but if you are I would suggest you try transferring the same pics directly from they camera and see if you have the same problem.

Maybe, like me, you need to upgrade your cardreader. I purchased a Lexar Professional UDMA Compact Flash SD Reader (USB2) and have not had a problem since. Also, the pics load waaaaaay faster.

Cheers

Thanks RamblinR. I tried dozens of different scenarios. One of which was the card reader. I took the card reader out of the loop and used a SDHC to USB adapter from Hoodman. The camera still produced these artifacts on a few of the shots, something like 1 out of every 100 images and no pattern. If the card reader as faulty, it would have done that to all the images. Am using the same card reader now as before with no more issues.

It can't hurt incandenza to try however.
08/06/2010 11:12:32 AM · #24
Yeah, I should have mentioned in my initial post that I've tried transferring images both ways - with a card reader and straight from the camera. Same results on the same pictures each time.

Magnum_za, it sounds like it took Nikon almost two entire months to get your camera back to you - the thought of being without one right as I'm trying to start shooting some freelance projects seems pretty discouraging. Also, I'll need to check on prices again but if it costs about $460 to fix, and a new d80 (or d90) body is a little less than twice that... money is tight right now and I don't even have the money to fix it, let alone just go for a new body completely.

I guess for now I can just try to take the same shot 2 or three times each and just hope that one of them comes out well. But I'm concerned that this is happening more frequently - last week, this only happened to maybe 4/200 pictures I shot. Yesterday, it happened to maybe 30/200. Numbers are inexact, but the proportions are about right.

Anyway, thanks - I'm going to take this into a camera repair store that says they do free assessments and see what they say, but the sensor/CCD seems to make sense.
08/07/2010 07:09:53 AM · #25
Hi Incandenza.
Yes, about 2 months. It's my understanding that Nikon South Africa didn't have stock and ordered it in from the UK which is what took so long. At the time the Icelandic Volcano erupted and may have had something to do with the delay.
Your local agent may have more luck as in the USA stock probably comes from Nikon USA and may take 48 hours to ship from A to B within the USA.
I understand your cost implications but it's my 2nd spare backup body and I don't have a choice.
Let me know how it goes.
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