The Abstract Club - DPChallenge Forums

03/30/2010 06:46:46 PM · #104

Originally posted by kleski:

Isn't that why people have side challenges? Because they want to shoot something different as a group? My only problem has been, and I will say it again, no one else could participate because YOU, as a group, decided who could play and who couldn't. It's not about the artistic merits of the photos but the selfish way those photos were presented...stick to the real issue please.

This is the ultimate selfishness, in my opinion: no group may form or act in any way because they failed to invite YOU specifically.

What they did do was enter a challenge with a sense of humor, an out of the box approach, with no hope or expectation of scoring well or winning, just the experience of enjoying themselves in the process, all while having no intention of insulting or excluding anyone. You are choosing your own reaction here, they are imposing nothing on you. And your complaints are driven by your own selfish, self-chosen responses. They didn't harm you, or the challenge. You are choosing to be harmed.

I'd rather see this sort of thing in EVERY challenge than not. At the worst, it would be a lot of low-scoring entries that held no interest. At the best, it would inspire creative ways to consider a given challenge, or photography in general. You can "punish" the entries with your dnmc police voting, but trying to shout down the concept of such entries overall is despotic. I'd rather see the complainers find time to constructively contribute with creativity, useful critique, rather than spending time and energy polishing DNMC Police badges and attempting to enforce their will on anyone who dares think differently, photograph differently, and find a few members here who see things similarly and dare to collaborate on their photography in any way.

Imagine if the Stompers were as passionate about trying to do something new, see something differently as they are passionate about stomping on those who dare try it. What an amazing variety of imagery we would all see here.

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

03/30/2010 07:29:25 PM · #105

Originally posted by Jac:

... let the USERS OF THIS SITE DECIDE what they want to see on this site.

?????????

12 Users did just that. Other Users voted as they saw fit. What part of what happened "violates" your precious principle, here? Or are you trying to tell These Twelve Users That They Must Conform To What YOU Think The Other Users Want ?

And the "crybabies" comment is at worst out of line, and at best, more applicable to posters like yourself in this thread. Note (if you dare) that this thread was not even started by any one of the "twelve". The shouting and complaining and demanding change of others is all being performed by those complaining that such demands are inappropriate. It really is headache material trying to follow the "logic"

David Ey

Nikon D80

03/30/2010 07:30:24 PM · #106

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by kleski:
It's not about the artistic merits of the photos but the selfish way those photos were presented...stick to the real issue please.

I got it. We're back in kindergarten. Can't have a birthday party unless we invite everyone in the class?

Look, people are forming, dissolving, and reforming groups all around you, every day, not just in DPC for this challenge. Aren't you used to it by now? We're just a buncha kids that met up on a street corner and decided to go down by the river and skip rocks. We'll catch ya next time, OK?

R.

But, You had the party IN the classroom.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

03/30/2010 07:35:35 PM · #107

Well, i answered a PM privately, but in reading more and more of this thread, I feel compelled to paste my response here to the question of "what do you mean by it made you feel uncomforatable".....

Originally posted by my reply:

Hard to explain what I meant by uncomfortable - I thought about it and I think part of it is just the *perception* or feeling that it taints the individual, anonymous aspect to voting. Not saying it actually does that, just seemed like it did and part of it also might be that I could predict people's reaction to it and that plenty of others might feel there is something fishy going on. There are already a number of people who feel that members "cheat" in one way or another - not necessarily breaking rules, but the spirit of the rules in challenge voting. I like to think little or none of that goes on, but I am decidedly naive when it comes to giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah oddly enough I have this concept in my head that official challenges are sacrosanct and should be kept pure in regards to individual efforts. Whatever though - like I said, I was just posting my feelings on it. Bottom line is that, yes, it took away from the enjoyment of voting. Apparently for several others as well. So my question to the group that did it is "was it worth it?" - again, I really don't care that much either way but I could see my voting participation dropping off drastically if this happened too often.

Hope that answers effectively. :-)

To be very clear, I am not unhappy I wasn't invited to participate. I have been asked to participate in similar things in challenges in the past and thought it was not a good idea. In all honesty to people who submitted abstracts and the rest of you who think it was a great idea, how would you feel voting in challenges that regularly had groups of photos like these:

- a dozen people submit photos of woodies that in no way fit the topic and each is titled "Woody 1", "Woody 2", etc.
- 20 people decide to enter photos of public toilets in a "Color Portrait" challenge (personally, I'd be tempted on this one)
- 40 people decide to enter a solid black image and they are all titled "lens cover protest"

Where does it end and at what cost? I know you all think you had good reasons for doing it, but so would the people in the 3 cases above. I'll just repeat this: Bottom line is that, yes, it took away from the enjoyment of voting. If you don't care, that's your right. I don't care all that much either - just stating my reaction to it. Again, to be very clear, I am not condemning those that did it, but neither should they condemn those who reacted negatively towards it, IMO. :-) <-- see, I am still smiling. :D

PennyStreet

Olympus OM-D E-M1

03/30/2010 07:35:44 PM · #108

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
I've been away for the last couple of weeks but if you do this kind of thing again, count me in.

To me, there's no question that the idea succeeded on the creative end but it sounds as if the evolution of the group may be the issue. I'm not sure - was it self appointed or could anyone join?

Agree with Chromeydome's remark "I'd rather see this sort of thing in EVERY challenge than not". Sure, I'd love to be involved first hand with anything abstract and creative but, more importantly (and when voting), I would love to see every challenge have more entries like these.

03/30/2010 07:46:48 PM · #109

Ken, it does make sense. I can see where it would have seemed there's a movement a-foot to do something dastardly. Not the intent, of course, but I can see where it would appear that way. I would indeed be irritated by 40 black frames titled "Lens cap" or something similar, mostly because it would not require much if any effort to photograph. Public toilets, well, that's another story, if done creatively. Though I can see where having 20 people doing it... well, I still think that one could be a good idea if it meets the challenge. (Did I mention how hard it is to shoot abstracts on purpose?)

Yet I still can see the collusion/exclusion angle and the way that can be perceived. Perhaps the next "experiment" could be more of something discussed as options in the challenge thread. Approaches, perhaps. But then you could still have issues with anonymity. I'm not sure how to incorporate a bit of creativity into a challenge without causing a bit of a fracas.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

03/30/2010 07:52:22 PM · #110

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Where does it end and at what cost?

I think this sort of thing tends to be self-correcting. If the voters don't like it, then the photographers would face very low scores and harsh feedback. The "fun" would wear off quickly.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

03/30/2010 07:54:24 PM · #111

Originally posted by Melethia:

I'm not sure how to incorporate a bit of creativity into a challenge without causing a bit of a fracas.

Creativity needn't involve a group.

03/30/2010 07:57:40 PM · #112

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Well, i answered a PM privately, but in reading more and more of this thread, I feel compelled to paste my response here to the question of "what do you mean by it made you feel uncomforatable".....
Originally posted by my reply:
Hard to explain what I meant by uncomfortable - I thought about it and I think part of it is just the *perception* or feeling that it taints the individual, anonymous aspect to voting. Not saying it actually does that, just seemed like it did and part of it also might be that I could predict people's reaction to it and that plenty of others might feel there is something fishy going on. There are already a number of people who feel that members "cheat" in one way or another - not necessarily breaking rules, but the spirit of the rules in challenge voting. I like to think little or none of that goes on, but I am decidedly naive when it comes to giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah oddly enough I have this concept in my head that official challenges are sacrosanct and should be kept pure in regards to individual efforts. Whatever though - like I said, I was just posting my feelings on it. Bottom line is that, yes, it took away from the enjoyment of voting. Apparently for several others as well. So my question to the group that did it is "was it worth it?" - again, I really don't care that much either way but I could see my voting participation dropping off drastically if this happened too often.

Hope that answers effectively. :-)

To be very clear, I am not unhappy I wasn't invited to participate. I have been asked to participate in similar things in challenges in the past and thought it was not a good idea. In all honesty to people who submitted abstracts and the rest of you who think it was a great idea, how would you feel voting in challenges that regularly had groups of photos like these:

- a dozen people submit photos of woodies that in no way fit the topic and each is titled "Woody 1", "Woody 2", etc.
- 20 people decide to enter photos of public toilets in a "Color Portrait" challenge (personally, I'd be tempted on this one)
- 40 people decide to enter a solid black image and they are all titled "lens cover protest"

Where does it end and at what cost? I know you all think you had good reasons for doing it, but so would the people in the 3 cases above. I'll just repeat this: Bottom line is that, yes, it took away from the enjoyment of voting. If you don't care, that's your right. I don't care all that much either - just stating my reaction to it. Again, to be very clear, I am not condemning those that did it, but neither should they condemn those who reacted negatively towards it, IMO. :-) <-- see, I am still smiling. :D

I think it ends when it ends :-) at little or no cost.... Remember when Streaking was a Big Deal? It happened a few times, died out, and seems pretty lame now. There is someone in every stadium, every game with a John 3:16 banner--so common that it is almost invisible unless you specifically watch for it. I am not equating the two things, just noting that each is potentially polarizing enough to cause some segment of the audience to have an extreme reaction. I dare say most of us are more annoyed by the loudmouths in the stands near us at events rather than the banners or even a streaker.

So this sort of thing ends when it fails to be noticeable, to matter, or to be new and creatively done. The cost seems to be irritation and offense by a few, same as with the streaking and banners--nobody is much irritated by those anymore, either.

Also, you likely instigated/inspired the next three Experiments :-) I doff my lenscap in your direction, sir :-)

Nikon AF-S Zoom-Nikkor 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED

03/30/2010 08:04:03 PM · #113

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Melethia:
I'm not sure how to incorporate a bit of creativity into a challenge without causing a bit of a fracas.

Creativity needn't involve a group.

No, but it's a whole lot more fun that way.

hihosilver

Nikon D200

03/30/2010 08:27:35 PM · #114

Well, I consider myself sufficiently tarred and feathered.

Ken, if I had any idea how deeply you felt about this matter, I never would have played Star Trek trivia with you or banished you to the kitchen.
But, I already apologized for teasing the boys.

I make no further defense to you because I have no crime to defend.

Yes, it was worth it.

-Mae

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/30/2010 08:41:28 PM · #115

Originally posted by hihosilver:

Ken, if I had any idea how deeply you felt about this matter...

I feel as deeply about this matter as I do about Star Trek trivia. :P

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

03/30/2010 08:45:26 PM · #116

Originally posted by chromeydome:

... They didn't harm you, or the challenge. You are choosing to be harmed. ...

I disagree. I saw this group effort as a mockery of DPChallenge. It came across as a coordinated anti-establishment effort.

As to kleski being selfish - I'd say he's not. And I'd also say he's not alone in his disapproval - just happens to be more vocal. With the 12 group entries receiving on average 30 votes of 1 (that's over 20% of the votes cast on those entries), I'd say there were plenty of DPCr's that weren't amused.

BTW - tnun, add me to your running list in this thread please. Thanks.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

03/30/2010 09:02:30 PM · #117

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
But I do hope the Abstract Gang will consider this a failed experiment. But I won't lose sleep over it either way. :-)

Actually, "we" don't think it "failed": we set out to create a work of conceptual art, and succeeded. One measure of the success is the amount of comment, both pro and con, it has engendered.

R.

No offense my dear friend, but can one deem an undertaking of this type truly a success.

While it is indeed true that the efforts of the group did generate a great deal of discussion, one could argue that all that has transpired so far is that different factions proffer different and sometimes volatile views.

Progress is indeed a something to strive for... but have we reached that elusive pinnacle or are we merely engaging in mindless chatter, devoid of any truly redeemable values.

The issue at hand is not so much what the group did...as much as it is perceived by some as an affront to what some might view as the prescribed norm.

Right or wrong, perception is everything... and in this instance some feel slighted with the ensuing results that all that has transpired to date is that a rift has been created with the differing factions at odds with each other.

Ray

David Ey

Nikon D80

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

03/30/2010 09:05:54 PM · #118

Yep, that's what photography is all about.

03/30/2010 09:08:46 PM · #119

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Heh. And yet you claim this thread wasn't to call anyone out, since as you put it, that would imply something negative... :-)

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/30/2010 09:09:35 PM · #120

And oh by the way, I don't know how, exactly, but my other challenge entries, which are FAR more standard, are still suffering the backlash for this. Would love to know how that works!

Ah, wait. I know. I suck! (I keep forgetting that...)

Message edited by author 2010-03-30 21:10:00.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/30/2010 09:16:33 PM · #121

Originally posted by glad2badad:

It came across as a coordinated anti-establishment effort.

That's the most encouraging thing I've heard so far about this flimsy little exercise.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/30/2010 09:21:12 PM · #122

Originally posted by glad2badad:

With the 12 group entries receiving on average 30 votes of 1 (that's over 20% of the votes cast on those entries), I'd say there were plenty of DPCr's that weren't amused.

I readily grant you that 20% of the voters think these images Don't Meet the Challenge. But just for perspective, I give you an image of mine from 2005 that got 65 1's, over 20% of the voters in that challenge:

There was, of course, no issue here of any sort of group thumbing its collective nose at the good folks of DPC...

R.

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

03/30/2010 09:24:33 PM · #123

Originally posted by glad2badad:

It came across as a coordinated anti-establishment effort.

Is that good or bad? :)

love

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/30/2010 09:36:40 PM · #124

Words can't express my shock when I read some of the names involved. Makes me feel sick inside.