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03/11/2010 02:08:10 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
As recently as the middle of last year we had about 2200 paying members. Around the end of the year we sank below 2000, and today we are at 1847.
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That is quite a big difference. It makes me wonder about non-paying users as well. I assume their use/participation counts both from an ad revenue point of view and submiting to the challenges and forums available to them. What type of stats and conclusion do you have for non-paying users? Did the ~400 members leave entirely or did they continue on as non-paying users?
I personally partcipate less now that I did when I was a complete novice 2 years ago (although with a 4.6 Fine Art score, maybe I have not come that far...), but still find huge value here. |
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03/11/2010 02:41:46 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by ursula:
kirbic, Fritz, a question for you:
Why would a lively and active forum be valuable for a photography site? I mean, if I remember, a lot of the threads (when the forums were very active) were only indirectly (if at all) related to photography. So the question I guess is, is it valuable for a site, a photography site, to have an active forum that is a sort of community chat, or is it better to try to rein in the discussions to just what is related to photography? Does the question make sense? |
Well, I think it's more an indicator of participation, of investment in the community by its members. I ask myself, why would someone pay for membership here? What value are they getting, and is it more or less bang for the buck than other alternatives? So let's list a few things:
- Competition (has to be first, it's in the name!)
- Photo sharing
- Learning
- Interaction with other photographers (on-line, in person)
Let's take these things in order:
Competition: I still believe that DPC is one of the best competition sites on the 'net, but that's my opinion. There are other sites out there, heck even DPReview now has challenges, and they are getting a significant number of submissions of overall good to excellent quality. What sets DPC apart is the attention to fairness in voting. Where we have fallen down (badly, IMO) is in managing our rules. They are *way* too complex.
Photo Sharing: Here's an area where we could really make headway. We've talked until we are blue in the face about improvements to portfolios, but we have not acted. This is an area where we have to be careful. We really don't need or want (IMO of course) to become another Flickr, filled with people's cell phone snaps. OTOH, features like "interest groups" are a Flickr feature that would play to DPC's strengths. Think how great it would be if we could create groups to share results of specific styles, techniques, etc., and have the photos all linked in to a common gallery. We just need a ton of work in this area.
Learning: *This* is where the value of the forum lies. It's why you see so many posts to the effect that "I've learned soooo much here." Along with the fun of competition, It's a large part of why we retain members here. When they grow beyond the stage where the need to validate themselves by competing, and where they need the forums as a source of knowledge, they decide to "shoot for themselves" and they drift away. How do we keep the top talent engaged, retain these members beyond the two to four years it takes them to mature as photographers? This, IMO is a key question. One that I don't really have an adequate answer for.
The great danger I see ahead for DPC is that the learning aspect is diluted as the forum participation falls off. At some point, it will not be "the place" to come for answers for budding photographers. As challenge participation (submissions, voting, commenting) all fall off, at some point the attractiveness of challenges will wane as well. At that point, DPC will cease to have the critical mass necessary to support itself, and it will die. Most importantly, DPC costs money to run, and at some point membership fees will not support site operations.
I can't point to the economy as a real factor here. Sure, we have certainly lost members on account of the economy, but the downward trend started long before the current recession, and has not really accelerated, just persisted.
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03/11/2010 02:49:25 PM · #28 |
Speaking only for myself, I mention dpc to everyone I encounter with an interest in photography. I know I have learned vast amounts from being on this site.
In regards to site traffic etc...well, when the recession had its teeth in our butts, I noticed both a severe drop in entries and what seemed to be a general souring of mood. The entries are still on the low side, ie under 200. The only exception is Free Study, which always draws in about 400 entries.
Freakish voting patterns (despite/because of?) the vote scrubber don't seem to encourage people to join, either. 'Nuff said.
And, fwiw, sometimes challenges seem to come perilously close to repeating themselves in a very short period of time. Shoes and Dance were within the same week, and Perspective VI was followed, I believe a week later, by Parallel Lines.
Didn't someone suggest that we have more challenges where you have to shoot an oddball assortment of common items? Challenges more along that line could spark more interest in the site. |
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03/11/2010 03:22:52 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Freakish voting patterns (despite/because of?) the vote scrubber don't seem to encourage people to join, either. 'Nuff said. |
The vote scrubber actually has far less effect than votes not counted because the voters did not make the minimum number of votes on the challenge. I don't know about "freakish" patterns. In eight years here, I've only seen one example of a pattern that was clearly influenced by something other than a normal, statistical variation in voter opinion. Voting here is as fair as it can be without extreme measures.
Edit for typo
Message edited by author 2010-03-11 15:23:18. |
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03/11/2010 06:00:42 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Competition: I still believe that DPC is one of the best competition sites on the 'net, but that's my opinion. There are other sites out there, heck even DPReview now has challenges, and they are getting a significant number of submissions of overall good to excellent quality. |
Holy cow. They are doing up to 4 challenges a day! 15 challenges in a week. Wow. |
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03/11/2010 06:10:15 PM · #31 |
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03/11/2010 09:02:50 PM · #32 |
Oboy, that sure is an oddball assortment... speaking only for myself, you understand ;-) |
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03/11/2010 10:18:40 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by _eug:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You're not imagining things, no. Challenge History gives you all the facts & figures if you want 'em... |
Yeah, I went and checked the archives. What I found was interesting. I was wondering if anyone else noticed too. |
Yeh, well, interesting isn't exactly the first word that springs to my mind! ;-)
During my time on SC I had been publishing quarterly reports of site activity statistics, and the trend for the past three years or so can be described in one word... "down."
As recently as the middle of last year we had about 2200 paying members. Around the end of the year we sank below 2000, and today we are at 1847.
At this rate we will soon lose "critical mass" and folks will just pack it up and go elsewhere. I've pretty much given up on major changes that will reverse the trend.
I remember a time when you often missed a thread if you were away for an hour; it would fall off the front page in as little as 20 minutes. Now stuff stays on the list for 12 hours or more on a very regular basis. 30 posts in 12 hours is not a healthy number for an active photography site. |
I think this sums the issue up very well. Speaking from 5 years of experience here myself, things have slowed down - it's like the company town after the company starts pulling out; the town goes dead. We've lost a lot of really helpful, talented members. Discussion has slowed hugely - as  kirbic pointed out, threads stay on the front page forever now, whereas they used to be very lively.
I hate to be the rain on any parades, but I've pretty much given up hope for DPC. I know that's both a sad and a negative comment, but I've seen enough signs over the years, enough threads begging for change, and enough silence from the admins to have stopped expecting a revival. I believe that DPC may be in the winter of it's life and the real shame is that if it dies, it will be because the people running the show no longer care enough to keep it alive, or to hand it off to others who obviously do care.
My first two years here, I learned a ton, entered as many challenges as I could, and tried to be active in the threads. And during that time, and even a year or so longer, whenever I got on the net, DPC was the first site I pulled up. I find that's not the case anymore. It's gotten a bit dusty here, and I don't find as many newly posted photos or discussions to engage me. I've shifted my primary attention to another site and really only stop in here for the community aspect.
That is the one thing that DPC has always had, and still does - an outstanding community, with a lot of real, long-standing friendships. The DPCers I've met at GTGs have always been awesome people and a lot of fun to hang with. I look forward to annual and semi-annual GTGs all year long. And although I won't be renewing my paid membership after it expires this time, I will continue as a registered user just to keep up those relationships.
However I fear the day when DPC ceases to be, and that community is finally dispersed. It will be a very sad day. But I don't see any way around it anymore.
That got a bit long winded and I know it's all been said before, and that saying it again won't make a difference. But I'm feeling nostalgiacal tonight and I guess that although I've given up tilting at this windmill, I still like to suite up and ride in circles to harass it sometimes.
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03/18/2010 09:00:22 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
... I remember a time when you often missed a thread if you were away for an hour; it would fall off the front page in as little as 20 minutes. Now stuff stays on the list for 12 hours or more on a very regular basis. 30 posts in 12 hours is not a healthy number for an active photography site. ... |
Was surprised to see the older threads this morning. It's not like it's 3am or something, we're talking 8:30!
Should be humming right along, instead the front page looks like this -->  |
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03/18/2010 11:08:46 AM · #35 |
I feel a lot of the downward trending to this site is also the stagnation of the site itself. The lack of evolution of the rules, the page system/communication system, and the lack of a DPL2 still 2-2.5 years later. This has definately had impact on the website.
The other factors that added into this has been the erratic voting patterns, the troll vote/under 3 without comment factor, and just the overall lack of comments in the challenges in general. We have lost alot of talent due/because of alot of different reasons.
When I started, there were tons of learning threads, the older memebers trying to help the newer members with processing, learning, and just random bits and tips to make them better photographers. Now its games and more social and again alot is lost through this. We still have some that try to do this, and at least I appreciate that.
But I do not plan on renewing my membership here as mine expires this year either. I can be social as a registered user with the people I have come to have great relationships on this site as well. |
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03/18/2010 11:40:19 AM · #36 |
| There is very little voter encouragement on this site. Votes are views and they are as important as submissions. Few people ever comment on this aspect except to complain about getting a low vote (which is in fact every member's privilege to bestow, paying or otherwise). |
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03/18/2010 12:12:45 PM · #37 |
| I don't think so. I had the opposite impression. |
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03/18/2010 12:22:20 PM · #38 |
Re  pineapple comment.
Does anyone have a number for the average length of membership for people who have been members, and are now either registered only, or left the site. It would be good to see how that's changing from year to year. Are the members staying members for a shorter time now? That would be another health indicator for the site.
Maybe it's time to think about handing out caps, mugs or camera straps for top 10's. People like to win a lasting reminder that they can actually put their hand on, and show to people. Think advertising. A DPC strap or hat might get people to ask "What's a DPC?" , and that would be a conversation starter, and most likely would get a new member once in a while. The cost of one hat or strap traded for two or three new memberships over it's useful lifetime isn't such a bad deal.
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03/18/2010 01:49:13 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
Maybe it's time to think about handing out caps, mugs or camera straps for top 10's. People like to win a lasting reminder that they can actually put their hand on, and show to people. Think advertising. A DPC strap or hat might get people to ask "What's a DPC?" , and that would be a conversation starter, and most likely would get a new member once in a while. The cost of one hat or strap traded for two or three new memberships over it's useful lifetime isn't such a bad deal. |
Heck, if they offered them for sale also, people would by them and it would bring in people to the website as well. Its free advertising, people pay for the hat and wear it. Others see it and check out the website.
But sadly this is another thing that we were told was "in the works" that never formulated.
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03/18/2010 06:32:54 PM · #40 |
I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of the site. The impetus here is competition. It's all about who has the most ribbons and/or who has the most favorites. If you're an amateur and just want to learn, then there's really not much here for you.
Sure, you can enter challenges and try to learn from them. However, getting beaten over and over again by experienced professional photographers and being totally ignored by the voters/commenters is not a great way to learn. It takes a strong-minded determined individual to put up with that kind of abuse for very long. It's also not well suited to targeting specific areas for learning.
A lot of people probably come here thinking it will be fun to enter a photo contest with the new digital camera they just received for a birthday present or whatever. They enter a few times, soon get bored with being ignored, and then they leave.
Others come because they want to learn and possibly have a little fun entering the contests. They quickly burn through the minimal tutorials available, get totally ignored in a challenge or two, then they go find other sites that are better suited to their needs. There are lots of other websites that are much more devoted to teaching photography.
A lot of people see DPC as being a very elitist, cliquish site. I've seen numerous people say that in the forums. That's seldom a good thing for building a community, especially if you want to attract and keep paying members. Why pay money to be ignored? You can get that for free almost anywhere. :)
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03/18/2010 08:48:23 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Mick:
... A lot of people see DPC as being a very elitist, cliquish site. I've seen numerous people say that in the forums. That's seldom a good thing for building a community, especially if you want to attract and keep paying members. Why pay money to be ignored? You can get that for free almost anywhere. :) |
I can see what you're saying in the majority of your post with one exception, that being the part I quoted...
I've noticed quite a few new names popping up in the forums, people asking questions about challenges, photography, and processing - and there's been decent feedback to those who ask. For those that aren't timid about making a forum post are usually rewarded.
Just one positive observation. :-) |
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