Anybody replace a lawn before with seed?

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

03/04/2010 01:10:54 PM · #1

Actually, I've done it myself, but last time my lawn was smaller and I used a sod cutter to take up the old lawn (which I put into a raised bed and had a great veggie garden the next year. This time my lawn is too big (about 4000 sq feet) to do that much work, so I'm planning on killing the grass instead. Here's my question I'm looking for advice on.

I'd like to amend the soil with 1-2 inches of compost. I'd like to avoid simply putting it over the dead grass because I'm afraid that will set up a layer in the soil which will interfere with drainage. Which of these two options do you think would be better?

1) Plug aerate the crap out of the dead lawn layer before putting the compost on?
2) Till the dead lawn layer before putting the compost on?
3) Till the dead lawn layer after putting the compost on?
4) Till the dead lawn layer both before and after putting the compost on?

In my view, the first may not be sufficient, the second may be the best option, the third is a good option except I think I'll have very lump soil with dead roots etc after tilling, and the fourth is a lot of work.

Anybody wanna weigh in with their expertise?

Louis

Nikon D800

03/04/2010 01:19:08 PM · #2

I don't think you have to kill the grass before you till it. Just till, compost, and seed.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

03/04/2010 01:20:51 PM · #3

Originally posted by Louis:

I don't think you have to kill the grass before you till it. Just till, compost, and seed.

Ooh, I'm not so sure about that. I have a lot of bentgrass and some large blade grasses (not sure of the type). The whole point of replacing is to make sure these aren't around and I think just tilling them won't prevent them from just growing back.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

03/04/2010 01:21:52 PM · #4

Green concrete works great :-)

R.

PhotoDave

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

03/04/2010 01:22:53 PM · #5

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Green concrete works great :-)

R.

Ive been giving that very idea a LOT of thought ;)

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

03/04/2010 02:36:50 PM · #6

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Green concrete works great :-)

R.

That's what the 'new arrivals' to Miami often do. They frickin' pave over their whole yard and sometimes they really do paint it green. They then complain about flooding during the summer rains and get up in arms if you don't maintain a 'no-wake' speed as you drive along their street.

SteveJ

Canon EOS-7D

03/04/2010 02:49:39 PM · #7

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Louis:
I don't think you have to kill the grass before you till it. Just till, compost, and seed.

Ooh, I'm not so sure about that. I have a lot of bentgrass and some large blade grasses (not sure of the type). The whole point of replacing is to make sure these aren't around and I think just tilling them won't prevent them from just growing back.

If you want to kill off the grass first, you need to be extremely careful what you use as some weedkillers have a residual effect and you can't reseed for a couple of years. Tilling won't get rid of bents or broad leaf grasses, in fact it will have the opposite effect as you will be breaking up the root system and spreading it further throughout the lawn.

We use metal spring rakes to breakup mosses without breaking up the grass root system. We then mow on lowest cutting height without scouring the ground. A good topsoil and compost mix is spread over the lawn, usually with grass seed mixed in. This is then gently raked for even distribution. Once seed has shown and established, we top it on a high cut to prevent uprooting the young grass. Regular cutting at three or four setting on a five setting mower will keep your lawn close cropped, this in turn will inhibit broadleaf and bents from taking hold, eventually the new grass will become dominant.

Get a good quality seed that is suitable for your usage, Rye grass mixes are fine for sports fields or heavy traffic lawns where children play. There is no point using A1 seed(bowling green) standard for a lawn where children and pets play.

Message edited by author 2010-03-04 14:50:45.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

03/04/2010 02:51:42 PM · #8

The easiest way would have been to use something like Alternatives to RoundUpwhich would have killed all of the grass including roots and then till the area in question and then seed.

Remember to water the area every day in the morning and make certain that no one disturbs the area.

Considering that you didn't do the activities shown in step one above, I would strongly recommend you go with your Step 2 and do not forget to water at regular intervals. Oh, and the earlier in spring the better.

Ray

atupdate

Pentax K-R

Promaster 28-200mm f/3.8-5.6 XR IF

03/04/2010 02:55:43 PM · #9

I had good luck killing the grass then using a seed slitter to put the seed under the old grass. I put new topsoil on top before I seeded and it turned out great. One hint if you use this method, don't try to cross slit the lawn, as the dead sod will come up in chunks. Always slit in one direction.

Tim

Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM

03/04/2010 03:02:54 PM · #10

Originally posted by SteveJ:

If you want to kill off the grass first, you need to be extremely careful what you use as some weedkillers have a residual effect and you can't reseed for a couple of years.

Originally posted by RayEthier:

The easiest way would have been to use something like Alternatives to RoundUpwhich would have killed all of the grass including roots and then till the area in question and then seed.

Actually, Roundup is a good choice to get rid of all of the grass and weeds. It does kill almost everything (down to the roots) but it only works by applying it to the leaves. This means that it does not have a residual effect in the soil.

We regularly use Roundup in my nursery by spraying it onto the weeds around the base of my trees. It does not harm the trees because even though it comes in contact with the soil, the trunks, and certainly the tree roots, it does not affect the trees because it never comes into contact with the leaves. I've never seen any indication that the trees (or any other plants) ever suffered due to any residual effects in the soil.

edit for spelling

Message edited by author 2010-03-04 15:06:21.

SteveJ

Canon EOS-7D

03/04/2010 03:10:43 PM · #11

Originally posted by yakatme:

Originally posted by SteveJ:
If you want to kill off the grass first, you need to be extremely careful what you use as some weedkillers have a residual effect and you can't reseed for a couple of years.

Originally posted by RayEthier:
The easiest way would have been to use something like Alternatives to RoundUpwhich would have killed all of the grass including roots and then till the area in question and then seed.

Actually, Roundup is a good choice to get rid of all of the grass and weeds. It does kill almost everything (down to the roots) but it only works by applying it to the leaves. This means that it does not have a residual effect in the soil.

We regularly use Roundup in my nursery by spraying it onto the weeds around the base of my trees. It does not harm the trees because even though it comes in contact with the soil, the trunks, and certainly the tree roots, it does not affect the trees because it never comes into contact with the leaves. I've never seen any indication that the trees (or any other plants) ever suffered due to any residual effects in the soil.

edit for spelling

We don't use Roundup as there have been some questions raised as to its safety. Industrial users, like our company, can't use Roundup as it is no longer allowed by EU. It is still available for domestic users in garden centres tho.

A link that might make you think: //www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/269751/roundup_weedkiller.html

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

03/04/2010 03:17:25 PM · #12

Originally posted by SteveJ:

A link that might make you think: //www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/269751/roundup_weedkiller.html

It does make me think...very interesting.

Louis

Nikon D800

03/04/2010 03:24:42 PM · #13

All such products have been banned in my province. The government only allows natural and biodegradable products, such as corn millet, which prevents germination (but does not kill weeds). I have to say, the air sure smells better around here in the spring.

kleski

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/04/2010 03:31:02 PM · #14

Originally posted by SteveJ:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Louis:
I don't think you have to kill the grass before you till it. Just till, compost, and seed.

Ooh, I'm not so sure about that. I have a lot of bentgrass and some large blade grasses (not sure of the type). The whole point of replacing is to make sure these aren't around and I think just tilling them won't prevent them from just growing back.

If you want to kill off the grass first, you need to be extremely careful what you use as some weedkillers have a residual effect and you can't reseed for a couple of years. Tilling won't get rid of bents or broad leaf grasses, in fact it will have the opposite effect as you will be breaking up the root system and spreading it further throughout the lawn.

We use metal spring rakes to breakup mosses without breaking up the grass root system. We then mow on lowest cutting height without scouring the ground. A good topsoil and compost mix is spread over the lawn, usually with grass seed mixed in. This is then gently raked for even distribution. Once seed has shown and established, we top it on a high cut to prevent uprooting the young grass. Regular cutting at three or four setting on a five setting mower will keep your lawn close cropped, this in turn will inhibit broadleaf and bents from taking hold, eventually the new grass will become dominant.

Get a good quality seed that is suitable for your usage, Rye grass mixes are fine for sports fields or heavy traffic lawns where children play. There is no point using A1 seed(bowling green) standard for a lawn where children and pets play.

Sounds like someone knows their lawn seeding here...another piece of advice would be to call a local grass grower(companies that grow grass for sodding large areas) and ask them what they recommend. We have a local grass farm and they post such advice on their website, not sure about the Oregon area though.

03/04/2010 04:08:39 PM · #15

Originally posted by kleski:

Hehe. Well, seeing that the majority of North America's grass seed is grown within sixty miles of my house, I probably have some people to talk to :), but I've already picked perennial rye. It stands up well, looks good, is suited for the northwest, and I like it better than fescues.

As far as weed killers, I'd rather not use one, but it seems to be the only feasible option for the project. The bentgrass needs to either be killed or removed (and it will be a huge job to remove). Roundup is among the least toxic of herbicides, so I'm comfortable using it.

Thanks for the ideas so far, I'll check out a few of the links.

03/04/2010 06:00:29 PM · #16

I called the local extension office and they thought I should till the area after laying compost to both break up the layer and mix the compost into the soil. I hope it won't wind up too lumpy-bumpy, but we'll see. I suppose I could remove the worst of the worst, but I doubt I'll remove it all. I also hope I don't hit the sprinkler system. Luckily there are no sprinklers in the lawn (they are on the periphery and fire into the center), but there are pipes running under. Anybody know how deep those usually are?

03/04/2010 06:13:05 PM · #17

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...but there are pipes running under. Anybody know how deep those usually are?

My experience is that they can vary greatly depending on when they were put in. If they were put it with the original construction of the house then they could be deeper than if they were installed after the construction.

Often, when a house is being built, the irrigation company will put in the rough plumbing with the heads 'stubbed up'. When the construction is complete and the final grading is done the elevation of the yard is sometimes raised when the soil used to grade the yard brought in.

If the irrigation system was installed afterwards, then it could have been placed just beneath the surface. I encounter that a lot here in South Florida because we are living mostly on what was once a coral reef and there is little topsoil...mostly all rock. So it is difficult digging and usually just enough depth to bury the pipes is all irrigation companies usually do. I don't know if irrigation companies go to a decent depth where you are or not. The rare times that I find an area that doesn't have rock I actually find it a pleasure to dig (weird, I know).

It shouldn't be hard to find out how deep the pipes are though. Simply dig up one of the sprinkler heads and trace it to it's source pipe. You're going to dig up the yard anyway.

03/04/2010 06:51:19 PM · #18

Originally posted by yakatme:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...but there are pipes running under. Anybody know how deep those usually are?

My experience is that they can vary greatly depending on when they were put in. If they were put it with the original construction of the house then they could be deeper than if they were installed after the construction.

Often, when a house is being built, the irrigation company will put in the rough plumbing with the heads 'stubbed up'. When the construction is complete and the final grading is done the elevation of the yard is sometimes raised when the soil used to grade the yard brought in.

If the irrigation system was installed afterwards, then it could have been placed just beneath the surface. I encounter that a lot here in South Florida because we are living mostly on what was once a coral reef and there is little topsoil...mostly all rock. So it is difficult digging and usually just enough depth to bury the pipes is all irrigation companies usually do. I don't know if irrigation companies go to a decent depth where you are or not. The rare times that I find an area that doesn't have rock I actually find it a pleasure to dig (weird, I know).

It shouldn't be hard to find out how deep the pipes are though. Simply dig up one of the sprinkler heads and trace it to it's source pipe. You're going to dig up the yard anyway.

ya, that's a good idea. I know where one is at least and will assume the others are roughly the same depth. We don't have the same problem here in the Willamette Valley as the Missoula floods dropped up to a half mile of soil in some areas. I've got topsoil in the backyard at least as deep as a screwdriver and probably quite a bit further. This is why they do all the grass seed farming here.

Message edited by author 2010-03-04 18:53:18.

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

03/04/2010 08:38:40 PM · #19

As far as killing your grass, I could loan you my dogs for a week or two.

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

03/04/2010 08:47:36 PM · #20

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

As far as killing your grass, I could loan you my dogs for a week or two.

I was thinking about suggesting a burner, but your pal Godzilla might work nicely instead.

see

Canon PowerShot S95

03/04/2010 09:14:45 PM · #21

Last fall I purchased a house here in southern Utah, a nice decorative gravel Â¼ acre yard surrounds. Do to the warm wet late winter I now have a Â¼ acre of gravel and grass, seems the previous owners forgot weed guard under the gravel. My last several weekends have been spent building a large stockpile of gravel, and as yet just scratched the surface.

03/04/2010 10:42:37 PM · #22

Originally posted by alans_world:

Total bummer!

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D