Science and Theology, the sequel

02/28/2010 01:54:27 PM · #1626

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Louis:
Just sayin'.

Hehe. I saw that too. But I was going to bring up this line.

"Bailey also said that these preferences may stem from a desire to show superiority or elitism..." ;)

Funny what grabs our attention huh... this line tended to resonate with me:

"It helps life to be paranoid, and because humans are paranoid, they become more religious, and they see the hands of God everywhere,"

I guess because of my life experience I have had the opportunity to see people in some very stressful situations and continue to be amazed how some will invoke God as if any supreme being could actually save them from what is happening.

Ray

02/28/2010 01:56:47 PM · #1627

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Anyway, the press loves to report on this stuff. They have no idea what peer-reviewed likely even means. I see medical articles reported all the time that are complete crap.

Too bad there wasn't a DrAchoo 2000 years old to sniff out the crap back then. :P

Correction: "old" should have been "ago".

Message edited by author 2010-02-28 14:29:53.

02/28/2010 02:03:49 PM · #1628

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Anyway, the press loves to report on this stuff. They have no idea what peer-reviewed likely even means. I see medical articles reported all the time that are complete crap.

Too bad there wasn't a DrAchoo 2000 years old to sniff out the crap back then. :P

Never fear. Mithras worship died out on its own. ;)

Ray, I meant expensive. You gotta pay someone to give these tests unless this guy has a lot of grad students willing to work for free (which could be). I'm just saying I'd be really wary of taking anything home from this. As Ed points out, does 6 points of IQ really mean anything? and as I pointed out, we haven't even seen the study so it could be statistically bogus to begin with.

If I'm six IQ points smarter than you, should we take away that it means anything as it pertains to this discussion? ;)

Message edited by author 2010-02-28 16:29:47.

02/28/2010 02:22:23 PM · #1629

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Louis:
Just sayin'.

Hehe. I saw that too. But I was going to bring up this line.

"Bailey also said that these preferences may stem from a desire to show superiority or elitism..." ;)

Funny what grabs our attention huh... this line tended to resonate with me:

"It helps life to be paranoid, and because humans are paranoid, they become more religious, and they see the hands of God everywhere,"

I guess because of my life experience I have had the opportunity to see people in some very stressful situations and continue to be amazed how some will invoke God as if any supreme being could actually save them from what is happening.

Ray

I think any time there's a lack of information, an unknown that is deemed critical, be it in sports, war, daily life or whatever, it reduces one's confidence. Religion just happens to be the most popular coping mechanism around but there are certainly others.

Message edited by author 2010-02-28 16:42:30.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/28/2010 08:12:53 PM · #1630

Apparently there is a God, and he is Canadian... :)

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

02/28/2010 08:17:49 PM · #1631

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Apparently there is a God, and he is Canadian... :)

Seems to be a variety of opinions on that matter ... ;-)

02/28/2010 09:31:37 PM · #1632

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Apparently there is a God, and he is Canadian... :)

I gather you saw the hockey game eh? :O)

Ray

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

02/28/2010 11:08:07 PM · #1633

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Apparently there is a God, and he is Canadian... :)

I gather you saw the hockey game eh? :O)

Ray

Man. Did I ever. I watched it on the DVR with the kids and had to turn it off in overtime to go to Caden's basketball game. I was praying nobody would be talking about it, but I didn't really have to worry about that (I'm not sure Eugene even knows what hockey is). The crazy thing was, we had turned it off literally 30 seconds before the winning goal. How funny is that?

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

02/28/2010 11:14:26 PM · #1634

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... The crazy thing was, we had turned it off literally 30 seconds before the winning goal. How funny is that?

Hey, you trying to make me reconsider whether such a thing as Divine Retribution might exist after all? ;-)

03/01/2010 08:36:57 PM · #1635

Holy crap! Every once in a while you have a near religious experience because someone whom you know nothing about puts down in ink what you have been trying to say for years without success.

In today's New York Times opinion column: Are there secular reasons?

Wiki on the author Stanley Fish since it's nice to evaluate the source.

Don't suddenly think I'm making more of an argument than I am. I am merely saying this article resonated with me very strongly.

03/01/2010 09:56:21 PM · #1636

Read it and found this comment most certainly caught my attention:

While secular discourse, in the form of statistical analyses, controlled experiments and rational decision-trees, can yield banks of data that can then be subdivided and refined in more ways than we can count, it cannot tell us what that data means or what to do with it. No matter how much information you pile up and how sophisticated are the analytical operations you perform, you will never get one millimeter closer to the moment when you can move from the piled-up information to some lesson or imperative it points to; for it doesnâ��t point anywhere; it just sits there, inert and empty.

Surely there exist all kinds of resources that will yield the requisite meaning and interpretations that need not involve structured religious elements.

I can't say that I share the author's view that there exists a need to liberate public discourse of the perceived constraints he seemingly associates with secularism.

Just a thought,

Ray

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

03/01/2010 10:01:09 PM · #1637

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Surely there exist all kinds of resources that will yield the requisite meaning and interpretations that need not involve structured religious elements.

Philosophy springs to mind, and it can still be secular.

03/01/2010 11:55:55 PM · #1638

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Surely there exist all kinds of resources that will yield the requisite meaning and interpretations that need not involve structured religious elements.

Philosophy springs to mind, and it can still be secular.

I am not trying to be sarcastic at all, but my jaw is on the desk seeing you write this. Haven't we spent countless hours and posts arguing about whether philosophy provides access to knowledge that science cannot? I feel like I'm in some bizarro world where I don't know what's real and what isn't. EDIT: I should add that if you have seen the light, then welcome! Make yourself at home.

Ray, I don't get the sense the author feels religion is a necessary element, but rather a possible one. As I said, I'm not trying to take the argument further than it goes.

Message edited by author 2010-03-02 00:02:14.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

03/02/2010 12:40:45 AM · #1639

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Haven't we spent countless hours and posts arguing about whether philosophy provides access to knowledge that science cannot?

Maybe you didn't read the same article. This talks about the interpretation and meaning (philosophy) of knowledge gained (science). The former is belief, not knowledge. Nice try.

03/02/2010 01:01:33 AM · #1640

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Haven't we spent countless hours and posts arguing about whether philosophy provides access to knowledge that science cannot?

Maybe you didn't read the same article. This talks about the interpretation and meaning (philosophy) of knowledge gained (science). The former is belief, not knowledge. Nice try.

Close enough for me. :)

03/02/2010 03:23:54 AM · #1641

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Holy crap! Every once in a while you have a near religious experience because someone whom you know nothing about puts down in ink what you have been trying to say for years without success.

Maybe he just read your 10,000 or so posts and summarized it? Brevity or not it's still a flawed argument. Besides religious reasoning could just as easily fall prey to the very same issues including the smuggling charges.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Case in point, Heliocentrism replacing Geocentrism. Of course there wouldn't have been a need for that change in thought had it not been for religious reasoning.

Message edited by author 2010-03-02 03:33:06.

03/02/2010 09:36:46 AM · #1642

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Holy crap! Every once in a while you have a near religious experience because someone whom you know nothing about puts down in ink what you have been trying to say for years without success.

Maybe he just read your 10,000 or so posts and summarized it? Brevity or not it's still a flawed argument. Besides religious reasoning could just as easily fall prey to the very same issues including the smuggling charges.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
Surely there exist all kinds of resources that will yield the requisite meaning and interpretations that need not involve structured religious elements.

Philosophy springs to mind, and it can still be secular.

Case in point, Heliocentrism replacing Geocentrism. Of course there wouldn't have been a need for that change in thought had it not been for religious reasoning.

I wasn't implying that it did mean it couldn't be flawed. I was just saying here's another guy who seems to agree with me and seems to be able to say it in a clearer fashion.

I'm not sure Heliocentrism is any case in point. In fact, it's probably the opposite where someone is trying to use the Bible as scientific data. I don't think he's making anything like that argument, and I am not either.

Matthew

Peleng 8mm f/3.5 Fisheye MC In M42 Mount

03/05/2010 11:33:10 AM · #1643

Originally posted by Cherie Blair:

I am going to suspend this sentence for the period of two years based on the fact you are a religious person and have not been in trouble before. You caused a mild fracture to the jaw of a member of the public standing in a queue at Lloyds Bank. You are a religious man and you know this is not acceptable behaviour

//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7014701.ece

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

03/05/2010 01:09:48 PM · #1644

Certainly not.

This is a shameful utterance, and an unacceptable judgement. Should I not be held accountable for my actions because I have nice grey eyes? Just as stupid a position to hold.

Hitchens' challenge should quash all such nonsense. "Name one moral action performed by a believer that could not have been done by a nonbeliever." In this case, its inverse seems apropos: "Name one immoral action performed by a nonbeliever that could not have been done by a believer."

NikonJeb

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 28-300mm f3.5-5.6G ED VR

03/05/2010 01:13:58 PM · #1645

Originally posted by Matthew:

Not in my opinion, HOWEVER.....

Since most people who obey a religious code hold the belief that their moral compass is stronger, should they be held to a higher standard?.......8>)

03/05/2010 01:50:49 PM · #1646

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Since most people who obey a religious code hold the belief that their moral compass is stronger, should they be held to a higher standard?.......8>)

If you promote a certain standard the court of public opinion will hold you to that standard. See Jimmy Swaggert, Tiger Woods, etc etc.

03/05/2010 02:21:09 PM · #1647

Originally posted by Matthew:

There has been some argument that religiosity and morality go together hand in hand. Here is an interesting qeustion: should people who obey a religious code be treated as being morally more upstanding than people who do not?

Originally posted by Cherie Blair:
I am going to suspend this sentence for the period of two years based on the fact you are a religious person and have not been in trouble before. You caused a mild fracture to the jaw of a member of the public standing in a queue at Lloyds Bank. You are a religious man and you know this is not acceptable behaviour

//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7014701.ece

The link seems to be broken. One thing I'll point out is that the phrase "morally more upstanding" implies a normative standard by which to compare the persons actions (ie. are religious people more in compliance with this standard than non-religious people). Perhaps the article addresses it, but what standard are we speaking of?

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D

03/05/2010 02:50:08 PM · #1648

No...particularly in this instance since he lied as to the reasons for his actions.

Notwithstanding that fact, why is it that we as a society believe such diatribe... do we earnestly believe that individuals of a religious persuation are more apt to adhere to the mores and morals of society?... absolute balderdash!!!

If indeed this individual was of an upstanding character he would NOT have stooped to lying in a vain attempt to justify his actions, and an alert judge would have considered that factor when rendering her decision.

There truly exists a need for a judicial review in this instance and to have the courts recognize the simple fact that there truly is no room in today's society for such uninformed and ignorant judicial renderings.

Ray

rossbilly

Nikon D200

03/05/2010 02:56:40 PM · #1649

An acquaintance stated that all morality HAD to be based on religion, and refused to understand that the exact same standards can be held without the use of religious texts. Then he wanted to say "well how do we hold people to a standard; how do we keep pedophiles from doing wrong?" Which, as the father of a victimized child, pissed me off. He would not accept any answer involving human rights, etc.

Strangely, he seemed offended when I mentioned the word 'slave' later in the discussion... because his heritage is Slavic. So hypocritical. Oh, and he said "I would rather be hypocritical & proved wrong than to not have a faith to stand on"

Talk about six degrees of WTF???

Originally posted by Matthew: