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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> More hassle for UK Photogs
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 02/22/2010 08:42:34 AM · #1
Despite talk about scaling back from the UK police and being told by senior officers to use 'commonsense' it seems that it is still difficult to go out and about taking photographs in public. I can understand if your taking photos in 'sensitive areas' such as docklands etc but when you go out in your home town to take photos of Christmas activities then they seem to have their left their 'commonsense' at home...

Apart from the main story in this link there are 2 other video reports to the right of the main story.

Photog arrested

Edit to add - these videos are between 8 and 10 mins in length



Message edited by author 2010-02-22 08:43:16.
 02/22/2010 08:56:26 AM · #2
Read that earlier too. The photog used to be a member here on DPC, he's very active over on 1x.com.

Bob Patefield


02/22/2010 08:59:11 AM · #3
I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I think the photographer could have practiced a bit more common sense himself. Not living in the UK, I am ignorant of the exact particulars of the law there, but it seems the photographer wasn't doing anything illegal. I sure it was within his rights to remain tight lipped, but the entire situation could have been diffused if he had leveled with the cop. Its not like he was on some high risk shoot for some large private client, he seemed to be on a walk about around town.

I live in New York, and more then once I have been stopped the "New York's Finest" and questioned about what I was doing. When this happened, I treated the officer with respect and treated him like a normal person. I want to communicate the fact that I am a relatively regular guy and not a looney. I know I didn't have to, and many wouldn't, but I offered to show the officer my photos. Usually they look at one or two, realize that I am a pretty low priority threat, and tell me to have a nice day. All it takes leaving ivory tower once and a while...
 02/22/2010 09:07:08 AM · #4
No - no flaming ! I think it started off with the PCSO** (police community support officer) not knowing what she was doing and asking the correct questions. I fully understand the police have a job to protect the public but this was a photog out taking pictures at Christmas time in the main street of his town - and telling him he was using 'anti-social behaviour' is just ridiculous.

**
Policy community support officers - they support local police but do not have the same powers etc. Some of them are excellent and do a good job but some of them can become a bit over the top and get a bit 'power crazy' !



Message edited by author 2010-02-22 09:11:04.
 02/22/2010 09:20:29 AM · #5
True, but what got me was that Patefield's friend told the officer what he was doing and got off. Patefield is a very proficient photographer, but to me at least, it seems like the PCSO wasn't the only person on their high horse in this sitation.
 02/22/2010 09:27:53 AM · #6
Originally posted by Five_Seat:
True, but what got me was that Patefield's friend told the officer what he was doing and got off. Patefield is a very proficient photographer, but to me at least, it seems like the PCSO wasn't the only person on their high horse in this sitation.


True - but it's not about being on your high horse - the point here is that unless they (the police) have resonable suspicion to arrest you for an offence you do not have to give them any details. We have rights as individuals to go about our day to day buisiness without being asked where we live/who we are/what we are doing and ending up on a database just because we went out and took some photos

This gives advice on what to do in the UK if your approached by the Police or PCSO's Section 44 bust card


Message edited by author 2010-02-22 09:28:47.
 02/22/2010 09:31:53 AM · #7
I hear ya.

I have only spent a very brief amount of time in the UK, but I suspect the Big Brother theme would get tiresome very rapidly.
 02/22/2010 09:53:01 AM · #8
Wow that makes me even more scared to try street photography o_o
On the one hand I think the officers were abusing their power - obviously this guy wasn't a terrorist and surely a quick look at the photos on his camera would prove that, but on the other hand, well he did take the p*** a bit didn't he? Although he was within his rights to refuse to give details he ended up getting arrested for... refusing to give his details!
 02/22/2010 10:12:16 AM · #9
Originally posted by Five_Seat:
I'm probably going to get flamed for this but I think the photographer could have practiced a bit more common sense himself. Not living in the UK, I am ignorant of the exact particulars of the law there, but it seems the photographer wasn't doing anything illegal. I sure it was within his rights to remain tight lipped, but the entire situation could have been diffused if he had leveled with the cop.

He wasn't being coy. He wasn't lying. They knew he was taking photographs. They were asking for his personal information, and he had a right to refuse under the law the PCSO cited. Once he refused, they changed the law they were citing him, and arrested him. It's pure and unadulterated bullshit.
 02/22/2010 10:13:57 AM · #10
This is not connected with this particular incident, but there is something I have been wondering about. Has anyone ever seen or heard about a documented case of the police arresting an actual terrorist for shooting photos of a sensitive location? I don't think that I have ever heard about it happening, or about a terrorist act being thwarted by such an arrest.
02/22/2010 10:34:23 AM · #11
It's so obvious that some police don't like it when people know, and stick to their rights about not having to give details so they just change tack and conspire to use a different law. It so often turns into an idiotic matter of pride with some coppers who just love the power too much. That saying about anyone who wants to be a politician should be the last person allowed to be one is true for the police in many cases. Particularly with PCSOs.

Message edited by author 2010-02-22 10:35:10.
 02/22/2010 01:22:44 PM · #12
I'm pretty much along with the ones who say he could have been a bit more cooperative if he really didn't have anything to hide. What's wrong with saying "I know it's within my rights not to give you my information, but I will let you know what I am doing and shooting...oh and what behavior seemed suspious?" Heck they may have even been nice enough to help him get better positioning for their shots, since he was cooperative and a non-threat...it could happen.

And how about turning the video camera on as soon as he saw he was getting approached ...don't know how that CAN'T be suspecious or maybe doing something just hoping for police involvement so he can record it and get publicity.

Don't know the person but that sort of behavior seems like someone that either has been in this situation WAY to often and maybe should look at the way he is acting/reacting or he is looking to create trouble.
 02/22/2010 01:46:43 PM · #13
Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
This is not connected with this particular incident, but there is something I have been wondering about. Has anyone ever seen or heard about a documented case of the police arresting an actual terrorist for shooting photos of a sensitive location? I don't think that I have ever heard about it happening, or about a terrorist act being thwarted by such an arrest.


This is a good point and reminds me of the old US immigration form.
I can't remember the exact wording but basically as i recall there was a question asking if you were an international terrorist or similar.
It always made me smile as I wondered how many international terrorists had ticked the box as we all know them to be an honest lot eh lol
 02/22/2010 01:48:30 PM · #14
Originally posted by sabphoto:

Don't know the person but that sort of behavior seems like someone that either has been in this situation WAY to often and maybe should look at the way he is acting/reacting or he is looking to create trouble.


Or has been paying attention to the numerous occasions over the last couple of years where the police have abused their positions. The police are there to serve the public. Burying your head in the sand, not sticking up for your rights and subserviently doffing your cap to those in authority even when they are flagrantly out of order is how the seeds of police states are sown. Melodramatic? Yea, maybe, but history tells us to always keep on our toes i'd say.
 02/22/2010 02:14:46 PM · #15
Ya know this is sad and I just don't understand this standing up for the police stuff that people do... I just don't get it. They should do something useful instead.....

* Show me proof of a photg using pictures specifically to perform an act of terrorism.. please show me; There has to be prosecuted cases for us to restrict freedoms like this right...
* Show me that public records and building plans have been restricted (these are very useful if your looking to blow up stuff).
* Show me proof that SLR and mobile phone cameras have identical rules.
* Show me proof that google street view is been shut down because that is far more useful if you believe this pathetic argument.
* Show me proof that all the CCTV camera in London have been outlawed.
* There are FAR better way of getting the info if you plan to set off a bomb, there really are. There are also FAR better ways for plod to get the information on planned attacks....

I lived in London in the early 90's during the IRA's numerous bombings and there were FAR more frequent and dangerous then some mostly abstract threat.... having a camera was never an issue. Yet with far less bombings suddenly it's a serious issue.... twaddle among other words :-)...
 02/22/2010 06:07:35 PM · #16
I didn't watch the video, but PCSOs have no rights different to civilians.

They can't arrest people purely on suspicion, if they could, they would be police officers. Which they're not.

That's the only difference between cops and civilians- the right to arrest on suspicion alone.
 02/22/2010 06:30:01 PM · #17
Originally posted by Tez:
I didn't watch the video, but PCSOs have no rights different to civilians.

They can't arrest people purely on suspicion, if they could, they would be police officers. Which they're not.

That's the only difference between cops and civilians- the right to arrest on suspicion alone.


Thats true. In this case the PCSO approached the photographer and claimed that because of the Terroism Act they had to take the names and details of all people taking photographs (totally false). The photographer knew this was untrue and refused and were allowed to go on their way. They were stopped a second time in a different part of town and asked to stop taking photos and to give details and were warned that they were possibly being anti-social. Again, they refused and were allowed on their way. They were stopped a third time, this time by the PCSO and also an acting sergeant, who i suspect had been called for, and the photographer was arrested for antisocial behaviour. As Louis pointed out, pure and unadulterated bullshit.
 02/22/2010 07:32:31 PM · #18
IMO, the photo *did* do the right thing. He stood on his rights. Yes, he could have easily avoided the hassle of an arrest by complying, but to do so was to knuckle under to an unreasonable request. He will inevitably win out, and there will be one more documented case of police overreaching. I'll be nice and ass-u-me that the overreaching is due to ignorance... though the cynic in me says it is not.
 02/23/2010 01:36:59 AM · #19
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
They were stopped a third time, this time by the PCSO and also an acting sergeant, who i suspect had been called for, and the photographer was arrested for antisocial behaviour. As Louis pointed out, pure and unadulterated bullshit.

WTF?? Anti Social behavior is a crime in the UK?? In many parts of the US, it's a lifestyle.
 02/23/2010 01:51:51 AM · #20
I've always wanted to visit the UK, but I want to bring my camera...
 02/23/2010 01:55:08 AM · #21
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I've always wanted to visit the UK, but I want to bring my camera...

PLUS, you are on the anti-social watchlist for your activity in the banned thread.
 02/23/2010 04:34:03 AM · #22
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
They were stopped a third time, this time by the PCSO and also an acting sergeant, who i suspect had been called for, and the photographer was arrested for antisocial behaviour. As Louis pointed out, pure and unadulterated bullshit.

WTF?? Anti Social behavior is a crime in the UK?? In many parts of the US, it's a lifestyle.


For most of my life i've treated it as a philosophical ideal. HAIL TO THE GRUMPS!
 02/23/2010 09:09:01 AM · #23
Originally posted by Louis:
...He wasn't being coy. He wasn't lying. They knew he was taking photographs. They were asking for his personal information, and he had a right to refuse under the law the PCSO cited. Once he refused, they changed the law they were citing him, and arrested him. It's pure and unadulterated bullshit.


Actually they didn't change the law, they simply found one that fit the occasion... there is a difference.

While I can appreciate that one has rights, one also has a certain level of obligations. This whole issue could have been solved rather easily if both sides exercized a bit of common sense.

Ray
 02/23/2010 10:23:11 AM · #24
I have no objection showing anyone my photos, on the contrary .... I love it.

I don't think I would of given my name but they would be welcome to see my shots were not terroristic.
 02/23/2010 11:56:10 AM · #25
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I've always wanted to visit the UK, but I want to bring my camera...

PLUS, you are on the anti-social watchlist for your activity in the banned thread.


If you think that's the reason I'm on that list...
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