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02/21/2010 01:40:34 PM · #1401 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
The reason why I am a Christian is my EXPERIENCES. |
That's not a very compelling reason if you were raised Christian. Were you?
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02/21/2010 02:21:57 PM · #1402 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
...All we can do is live for God and share the story of what he has done in our lives. |
A commendable objective... if you limit the sharing aspect to those who are truly interested.
Ray |
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02/21/2010 02:45:49 PM · #1403 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
"It makes absolutely no sense!...But I'm not a Christian because my worldview makes logical sense." |
first, thanks for your well written post. I was pleasantly surprised to notice the age in your profile. regarding xtianity, you recognize the complete lack of logic involved (bravo) how familiar are you with other religions, and are you open to comparative studies of other beliefs?
(btw - you have some beautiful photography on your blog, and I hope your business grows tremendously - its great to see a young person doing so well.) |
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02/21/2010 02:47:51 PM · #1404 |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
(btw - you have some beautiful photography on your blog, and I hope your business grows tremendously - its great to see a young person doing so well.) |
Already faved. ;-) |
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02/21/2010 02:48:14 PM · #1405 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
"It makes absolutely no sense!...But I'm not a Christian because my worldview makes logical sense." |
Originally posted by rossbilly:
first, thanks for your well written post. I was pleasantly surprised to notice the age in your profile. regarding xtianity, you recognize the complete lack of logic involved (bravo) how familiar are you with other religions, and are you open to comparative studies of other beliefs?
(btw - you have some beautiful photography on your blog, and I hope your business grows tremendously - its great to see a young person doing so well.) |
What he said......
Your photography is really something.
You're going to shake up some oldsters here, I can just see it!
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02/21/2010 03:00:29 PM · #1406 |
Man, I leave for a day or so and there is not one, but two decent posts on the thread...and one by Shannon! ;)
It's so gorgeous outside today I don't want to spend it on the computer, but I will respond to your post later. I appreciate it because it explains your view and puts meat on the bones of what you are thinking rather than one sentence replies (with lots left to be assumed either correctly or incorrectly).
I enjoyed photoMAD's post as well and think she speaks truth. I am a little surprised at the welcome reception and have some suspicions about things, but I'll keep them to myself. The more that are here, the merrier, and if she can display aspects of Christianity that I cannot, then I will appreciate her all the more. |
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02/21/2010 03:11:08 PM · #1407 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I am a little surprised at the welcome reception and have some suspicions about things, but I'll keep them to myself. |
Wow....
How charitable of thought.....
ETA: I was gonna leave it alone, but I can't.
This young woman makes more sense in one post than all of the rest of you put together.
She expresses confidence, and comfort in her faith, and in a delightful self-deprecating manner acknowledges the contradictions and questions that arise to those of us outside it.
What a breath of fresh air......y'all could learn a thing or two.
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 15:14:30.
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02/21/2010 03:15:59 PM · #1408 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...I am a little surprised at the welcome reception and have some suspicions about things, but I'll keep them to myself. |
I would say its a mix of respect for the poster being (a) so young and (b) well read. Don't worry, if she starts speaking in tongues or handling snakes then we'll have no choice but to get all 'atheist' on her. ;) Regardless her religious views, the photography work displayed IS very good for anyone (let alone someone of her youth). We are still on a photography site LOL.
Besides, it isn't the belief in a supreme being that bothers me. Rather, the (typical) non-acceptance & bigotry displayed by many (though not all) persons of faith. |
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02/21/2010 03:27:35 PM · #1409 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I enjoyed photoMAD's post as well and think she speaks truth. |
From just one post that conclusion was astonishingly quick. Were you the one who vetted Sarah Palin? ;)
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02/21/2010 03:31:32 PM · #1410 |
Sorry, should have been more clear. My suspicions are on the reception side, not on hers. (looks like Ross got what I was saying... :))
Yanko, I'm just saying I agree with what she says. Sheesh.
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 15:32:01. |
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02/21/2010 03:37:46 PM · #1411 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Yanko, I'm just saying I agree with what she says. Sheesh. |
Dammit then stop using words that have different meanings. Why not just say you agreed with her rather than say she speaks the truth? Double sheesh. :P
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02/21/2010 03:37:48 PM · #1412 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
I believe there is a place for debate and that Christianity can hold as much water intellectually and logically as any other worldview... BUT our mission as Christians is not to debate-- it's to go and witness using our testimony. We are not going to bring people to Christ by ranting at them through a thread. We are only pushing them away from Christ. I don't think it's possible for someone to come to Christ and believe the Christian worldview by just reading the definition of our theology-- because honestly, our worldview is the definition of insanity. The Christian worldview--just read by definition is full of contradictions and paradoxes and mutually exclusive adjectives. For example, Christ was 100% God and 100% man. We have a 100% free will but God is control of 100% of everything. God is 100% loving and merciful but he is also 100% holy and just. It makes absolutely no sense!
But I'm not a Christian because my worldview makes logical sense. I guess some Christian theologians and apologists would disagree with me, but I don't have all the answers. Call me blind or stupid or whatever, but I'm content to leave the paradoxes in Christian theology as paradoxes. I don't believe as humans we can ever grasp the idea of God in entirety. The reason why I am a Christian is my EXPERIENCES. And as Christians when we witness... we are supposed to give our testimony--which is a story of our experiences and what God has done in our lives. Because our personal experiences cannot be debated--because they are OUR experiences. No one can deny that God absolutely changed my life and continually changes me every day and I would be dead or in jail today without him. That, while very short and lacking in details, is MY testimony. We won't win people over to Christianity intellectually or logically--we just won't because our worldview makes no sense. But God can touch people's hearts and souls and that's not our job. All we can do is live for God and share the story of what he has done in our lives.
So with that, I just hope and pray that any Christians reading this who want to try to win people over by posting their two cents about Christian theology on this thread will think twice and instead share their testimony. |
Nice post photoMAD! I'm very impressed by your honesty and wisdom. I think you hit the nail on the head. The best way to share the Christian faith with someone is by sharing you're personal testimony. I can't agree more with you. You're also right in saying that debate will not "win people over". If that were the case then the debaters would get all the credit for winning souls, when really it's the Holy Spirit that does all the work and deserves all the credit. If I were trying to win people over I would share my testimony just as you suggested. Unfortunately, some people here have no interested in being saved, and have no interest in hearing about the good news of eternal life in Jesus Christ. |
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02/21/2010 04:04:48 PM · #1413 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Unfortunately, some people here have no interested in being saved |
This, in a nutshell, is one of the things that disturbs us. The ever-present, often condescending, attitude that there is something lesser about us that we need saved from in the first place.
It's demenaing, and implies that there's something wrong with life outside your worldview. I would expect you to feel that way, I guess within limits, but when you trumpet it from the rooftops, it's arrogant & demeaning. Especially when you try to make points in a roundabout way by saying things like infallible, logical, and reasonable "just like science" when that's simply not so.
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02/21/2010 04:22:09 PM · #1414 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Unfortunately, some people here have no interested in being saved |
This, in a nutshell, is one of the things that disturbs us. The ever-present, often condescending, attitude that there is something lesser about us that we need saved from in the first place.
It's demenaing, and implies that there's something wrong with life outside your worldview. I would expect you to feel that way, I guess within limits, but when you trumpet it from the rooftops, it's arrogant & demeaning. |
Yeah, I know that is one of the major turnoffs. A lot of people don't like Christianity because they don't want to accept the notion that there's something wrong with them. But it's not like Christians are perfect and only the "outsiders" are sinful and in need of a savior. Most Bible believing pastors preach about the need for repentance and faith in Jesus Christ TO Christians EVERY Sunday. According to Christianity there is something wrong with ALL people, not just outsiders. If a Christian person tells you that they don't need a savior, then they're a false Christian. One of the essentials to becoming a Christians is admitting that you're a sinner that needs a savior. This is a message that all true Christians preach to themselves, not just to outsiders. The only difference is that outsiders refuse to believe it.
ETA - it's only demeaning if you're unwilling to lower yourself to the place of a servant and make Christ the Lord of you're life, which is always some form of pride. My pastor says that unbelievers think, "I'm right, God's wrong" and Christians think, "God's right, I'm wrong". You either humble yourself and submit to Christ, or you reject Christ because of your own pride.
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 16:28:30. |
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02/21/2010 04:35:59 PM · #1415 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
ETA - it's only demeaning if you're unwilling to lower yourself to the place of a servant and make Christ the Lord of you're life, which is always some form of pride. My pastor says that unbelievers think, "I'm right, God's wrong" and Christians think, "God's right, I'm wrong". You either humble yourself and submit to Christ, or you reject Christ because of your own pride. |
When you say non-believer who exactly are you referring to? Believers in God but not of Christianity or non-believers of all gods? If it's the latter none of what you or your pastor said makes any sense.
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 16:36:33.
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02/21/2010 04:42:58 PM · #1416 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Unfortunately, some people here have no interested in being saved |
Saved from what? We've apparently backed off the idea of original sin being the problem (or babies would be condemned at birth for someone else's actions), and it's been emphatically declared that deeds don't matter (which would eliminate acts of sin within your lifetime). That only leaves 'saved from the disbelief that we've been saved' from one or both of those two non-issues. I guess we're not supposed to understand that we need saving unless we already believe it...
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 16:58:09. |
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02/21/2010 04:47:23 PM · #1417 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
ETA - it's only demeaning if you're unwilling to lower yourself to the place of a servant and make Christ the Lord of you're life, which is always some form of pride. My pastor says that unbelievers think, "I'm right, God's wrong" and Christians think, "God's right, I'm wrong". You either humble yourself and submit to Christ, or you reject Christ because of your own pride. |
When you say non-believer who exactly are you referring to? Believers in God but not of Christianity or non-believers of all gods? If it's the latter none of what you or your pastor said makes any sense. |
Let me be more specific. People who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior say, "I'm right, God (Christian God) is wrong". People who do accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior say, "God (Christian God) is right, I'm wrong". |
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02/21/2010 04:55:33 PM · #1418 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
People who do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior say, "I'm right, God (Christian God) is wrong". People who do accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior say, "God (Christian God) is right, I'm wrong". |
You're forgetting the possibility of, "I don't know what's right, but every god proposed thus far has eventually been considered fiction, so it's probably not that." If any god really existed, it would be empirically undeniable through statistical evidence of events favoring the 'chosen' ones, the effectiveness of prayer (significantly beyond a placebo effect), a global history dating back tens of thousands of years, and resurrected bodies disappearing from tombs a la Jesus. We don't even have ONE of those. |
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02/21/2010 04:57:40 PM · #1419 |
Wow! I came back from church and had 2 very nice PM's and a flurry of complementary posts. Thanks guys... that means a lot to me. To quickly answer some questions, yes I was/am raised in a Christian home. But while some people who are raised that way basically "live off" their parents faith, my faith is my own. I've had some pretty difficult life circumstances that have raised SERIOUS questions in my mind about God. Its been a tough road but in the end, God is bigger than my doubts. And its his mystery that makes me want to worship him-- call it a cop-out if you please. I can't explain it in any other way than that God has been there with me through everything and I owe my entire life to him. But as  RayEthier said, I'll limit my sharing to those who are truly interested... PM me if you really want to know... i guess.
To answer  rossbilly while I definitely am not as familiar as I would like to be with the other religions, through taking Bible and apologetics and world religion classes every day for 10 years as well as my own reading... I'd like to think that I know the basics of some of the major other worldviews. And being an intellectually minded person (not to be proud), I thorough-ally enjoy researching and studying other religions and worldviews. I find it highly interesting.
Just one quick point--because i do so hate angry debate. In a national survey, people were asked to describe Christians with 3 adjectives. The overwhelming majority... i think it was close to 95% gave Christians these 3: hypocritical, judgmental, and anti-homosexual. I was very sad when I heard this statistic because it reveals a basic failure among Christians. We are so set in defending our beliefs, throwing the Bible at people, shoving "truth" down people's throats, and telling them that they're "sinners who need a savior or they're going to hell" that we completely forget the whole point of the gospel and how to actually witness. There is a HUGE difference between people and issues. Issues need to be addressed with truth, but people need to be treated with love and respect and kindness and mercy. We need to stop telling people how to live and start showing them if we ever want those statistics to change. If Christians treated everyone the way Christ tells us to, I would hope that those 3 adjectives would be changed to loving, caring, and gracious.
In closing, thanks everyone for the nice comments about my photography. I wish I had time to do more and pursue it as much as I want to. Unfortunately, school takes up most of my time.
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02/21/2010 05:18:56 PM · #1420 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
I was very sad when I heard this statistic because it reveals a basic failure among Christians. We are so set in defending our beliefs, throwing the Bible at people, shoving "truth" down people's throats, and telling them that they're "sinners who need a savior or they're going to hell" that we completely forget the whole point of the gospel and how to actually witness. There is a HUGE difference between people and issues. Issues need to be addressed with truth, but people need to be treated with love and respect and kindness and mercy. We need to stop telling people how to live and start showing them if we ever want those statistics to change. If Christians treated everyone the way Christ tells us to, I would hope that those 3 adjectives would be changed to loving, caring, and gracious.
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Another home-run photoMAD! I wish I knew all this when I was 17. I was an idiot, and I completely messed up my life at that age.
Message edited by author 2010-02-21 17:19:49. |
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02/21/2010 05:30:09 PM · #1421 |
Originally posted by photoMAD:
To answer rossbilly while I definitely am not as familiar as I would like to be with the other religions, through taking Bible and apologetics and world religion classes every day for 10 years as well as my own reading... I'd like to think that I know the basics of some of the major other worldviews. And being an intellectually minded person (not to be proud), I thorough-ally enjoy researching and studying other religions and worldviews. I find it highly interesting. |
I encourage you to keep up with your study of other religions and worldviews. You are right that it is interesting stuff. How could it not be, since the study of religion is the study of humanity itself. I will only say two things: First, that I encourage you to seek out sources, if you have not already, beyond those provided to you in your Christian high-school. Perhaps the sources provided to you are entirely ecumenical and present the alternative views honestly, but perhaps not as well. Second, learn about science. As the study of religion can be seen as the study of mankind, the study of science is the study of the universe itself. Whether you see the operation of the universe as a fascinating and marvelous godless machine, as I do, or the manifestation of God's power and glory, as I know do many others, you owe it to yourself to have at least a basic understanding of the true nature of the universe you inhabit. Do your own research, look for unbiased sources and for sources whose bias might stand in opposition to your own. Be curious and unafraid of knowledge. You will always be a better person for its acquisition - Christian or otherwise.
Oh, and keep taking pictures! (I should take this piece of advice more often myself. ;) |
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02/21/2010 05:42:21 PM · #1422 |
Originally posted by shutterpuppy:
I encourage you to keep up with your study of other religions and worldviews. You are right that it is interesting stuff. How could it not be, since the study of religion is the study of humanity itself. I will only say two things: First, that I encourage you to seek out sources, if you have not already, beyond those provided to you in your Christian high-school. Perhaps the sources provided to you are entirely ecumenical and present the alternative views honestly, but perhaps not as well. Second, learn about science. As the study of religion can be seen as the study of mankind, the study of science is the study of the universe itself. Whether you see the operation of the universe as a fascinating and marvelous godless machine, as I do, or the manifestation of God's power and glory, as I know do many others, you owe it to yourself to have at least a basic understanding of the true nature of the universe you inhabit. Do your own research, look for unbiased sources and for sources whose bias might stand in opposition to your own. Be curious and unafraid of knowledge. You will always be a better person for its acquisition - Christian or otherwise. |
Thank you for the reminder. More knowledge and understanding is ALWAYS a good thing and I am quite unafraid of it. The universe IS amazing and just through my study in school I am amazed (all of our science, history, English, and psychology books are secular by the way). I quite enjoy learning on all levels but thanks for the reinforcement.
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02/21/2010 05:56:26 PM · #1423 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
According to Christianity there is something wrong with ALL people, not just outsiders. If a Christian person tells you that they don't need a savior, then they're a false Christian. One of the essentials to becoming a Christians is admitting that you're a sinner that needs a savior. This is a message that all true Christians preach to themselves, not just to outsiders . . . it's only demeaning if you're unwilling to lower yourself to the place of a servant and make Christ the Lord of you're life, which is always some form of pride. My pastor says that unbelievers think, "I'm right, God's wrong" and Christians think, "God's right, I'm wrong". You either humble yourself and submit to Christ, or you reject Christ because of your own pride. |
Perhaps you should re-read the post of photoMAD's that you praised, and begin its application in your own posts.
You still seem to believe that we just don't understand your arguments. We do. They just aren't persuasive.
Your pastor shares the same arrogant delusion that you do in that you both appear to believe that non-believers are lying (either to themselves or to others). Your attitude seems to be that when we profess our non-belief, we are actually just covering up for not liking the message/restrictions/worldview of Christianity. In your mind, we non-believers do actually believe in god, and not just any god, but Your Particular Christian God, and we just don't like what he has to say. You are either unwilling or perhaps unable to accept that a non-beliver is just that, someone who does not believe there is a god (let alone a Christian God). We are not disagreeing with God, we are disagreeing with you.
Switch it around - imagine if every non-believer you met approached any conversation you had with the attitude that your professed faith was just a lie, and that deep down you really knew that there was no such thing as gods. How would you react to such an attitude?
I have no problem believing that you hold your faith honestly. Extend the same courtesy to my my non-belief. |
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02/21/2010 06:28:31 PM · #1424 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
I wish I knew all this when I was 17. I was an idiot, and I completely messed up my life at that age. |
MUST........RESIST.......SNARKY.......POST.....
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02/21/2010 06:42:29 PM · #1425 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Unfortunately, some people here have no interested in being saved, and have no interest in hearing about the good news of eternal life in Jesus Christ. |
I must point out that your arrogance is both astounding and insulting. You erroneously assume that 'we' have not ever been religious persons (of any faith). You are terribly wrong. Most of the agnostic/atheistic persons I've encountered were first Christian, and THEN became nonbelievers. Personally, I accepted Jesus as my saviour several times from childhood to nearly 30 years old. Then I began to question all the things I had blindly followed. I had grown tired of the endless examples of bigotry, prejudice, and disrespect throughout organized religions. No, not every PERSON acted that way... but it is definitely the norm.
The problem with your assumption (besides making you appear uninformed) is that it proves our point of arrogance & pompousness on the part of most believers; it is tacitly inherent. Please do not misinterpret this message. I am not attacking you or your belief. I am pointing out that your position is one of misinformation regarding non-believers. The fact that I disagree with your religious belief is an entirely separate issue.
Also, please feel free to share this with your instructor, as I'd genuinely like to hear his response. |
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