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02/18/2010 08:09:05 AM · #51 |
So I take it then, you are going to keep on showing the photographs on line and in your portfolio?
I agree with Jeb on some of his points. You did do a lot of work and it does appear that she was well informed throughout the process. I think that you should ask her the normal rate for a modeling session and explain why, but I also think she sent you a heartfelt plea and is desperate for these shots not to exist.
The morally right thing to do, is to consider it and do it. The morally right thing she should do is pay for your time. We all make mistakes in life and make decisions that we regret a month later, a year later, 6 years later and we all wish that we could redo our mistakes in our lives. She is trying to undo a mistake that she made.
Is it worth it to look at these photos and have a twinge every time you do. Are these photos of her , are they really going to make you money, no they are not, she she isn't that great of a model and shooting her in what looks like a crappy basement is not going to make you any money.
Asking her for money for the portrait session is perfectly within your right and she should consider that too. But if you are going to be like, "well that is going to $500 plus" does that then come down to blackmail. It kinda looks like it in my book.
Be fair with her, I am sure she will understand as well.
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02/18/2010 08:26:49 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
The morally right thing to do, is to consider it and do it. The morally right thing she should do is pay for your time. We all make mistakes in life and make decisions that we regret a month later, a year later, 6 years later and we all wish that we could redo our mistakes in our lives. She is trying to undo a mistake that she made. |
The morally right thing to do is to be willing to discuss an equitable agreement. That does not mean that he should acquiesce to scrap the images with no consideration for his time, effort, and expense.
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Is it worth it to look at these photos and have a twinge every time you do. Are these photos of her , are they really going to make you money, no they are not, she she isn't that great of a model and shooting her in what looks like a crappy basement is not going to make you any money. |
The issue isn't the quality of the images, nor how risque they may be, they're not particularly, but at what point is it reasonable to be blackmailed by the morality of someone changing their mind about something the willingly agreed to do.
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Asking her for money for the portrait session is perfectly within your right and she should consider that too. But if you are going to be like, "well that is going to $500 plus" does that then come down to blackmail. It kinda looks like it in my book.
Be fair with her, I am sure she will understand as well. |
Okay......what's fair?
Be honest, go back and read all of the OP's posts, figure out what his costs were to do this shoot, and assign what would be fair in your opinion.
Is $500 too much for you to charge someone who asked you to do these images?
The time & expense sure is worth more than $50.
This reminds me of the old saw....
Man to woman: "Would you sleep with me for $250,000?:
Woman: "Absolutely!"
Man: "How about $250?"
Woman: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?"
Man: "Well, I thought we had established that; I'm just negotiating terms now."
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02/18/2010 08:43:06 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by JulietNN:
The morally right thing to do, is to consider it and do it. The morally right thing she should do is pay for your time. We all make mistakes in life and make decisions that we regret a month later, a year later, 6 years later and we all wish that we could redo our mistakes in our lives. She is trying to undo a mistake that she made. |
The morally right thing to do is to be willing to discuss an equitable agreement. That does not mean that he should acquiesce to scrap the images with no consideration for his time, effort, and expense.READ WHAT I WROTE
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Is it worth it to look at these photos and have a twinge every time you do. Are these photos of her , are they really going to make you money, no they are not, she she isn't that great of a model and shooting her in what looks like a crappy basement is not going to make you any money. |
The issue isn't the quality of the images, nor how risque they may be, they're not particularly, but at what point is it reasonable to be blackmailed by the morality of someone changing their mind about something the willingly agreed to do. AGREED WITH YOU THE FIRST TIME
Originally posted by JulietNN:
Asking her for money for the portrait session is perfectly within your right and she should consider that too. But if you are going to be like, "well that is going to $500 plus" does that then come down to blackmail. It kinda looks like it in my book.
Be fair with her, I am sure she will understand as well. |
Okay......what's fair?
Be honest, go back and read all of the OP's posts, figure out what his costs were to do this shoot, and assign what would be fair in your opinion.
Is $500 too much for you to charge someone who asked you to do these images?
The time & expense sure is worth more than $50.
This reminds me of the old saw....
Man to woman: "Would you sleep with me for $250,000?:
Woman: "Absolutely!"
Man: "How about $250?"
Woman: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?"
Man: "Well, I thought we had established that; I'm just negotiating terms now." |
Okay my take on it, a reasonable figure in my mind would be about $200. That covers the cost of the portrait session and editing. It is not her fault that he spent months editing the photographs, he DID a very nice thing by going to model and discussing his steps and going back and reediting them. But that was also his choice to do that.
As he has stated before, there is a fine line of being reasonable and asking for the money and blackmail (asking for too much money)
those are my thoughts anyways, |
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02/18/2010 08:29:06 PM · #54 |
Lets have another LOOK Jeb and albc28.
The topic of this thread was whether or not the images of this young lady were to be removed from public view and the photog's portfolio. I did not concern my post with these matters as it had nothing to do with the problem as it was originally presented. Only until recently did albc28 mention payment and it is unclear who compensated whom, and with what....."Actually, I expected people in this thread to convince me that I should get rid of the photos and it's those people who have been telling me that I should that has helped me realize that I shouldn't. Everyone keeps throwing around statements of "do what's right" or "do what's moral"....well what's right and whats moral is....1) there was a deal 2) the work was performed 3) She received her part of the compensation 4) ***And here is where we are debating here*** I should receive my compensation."....I never said or implied you should not receive compensation. When the lady received her compensation, why did you not receive yours at that time? (I can only guess her compensation was the digital copies)
....."Actually, I expected people in this thread to convince me that I should get rid of the photos"....It looks to me you knew what you should do. What changed your mind?
Exactly what form of compensation was agreed upon? Sounds to me like that has already been taken care of, with the possible exception of you being able to use the shots in your portfolio. If this is the case then you might want to haggle over this with her but to me it seems rather trivial.
You didn't photograph this young lady while alone with her did you? If you did you might want to consider going a bit easy on her.
OK Jeb, have another shot at me for NOT addressing something. It seems you used to be disagreeable with what I said, now its what I didn't say. |
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02/18/2010 08:29:59 PM · #55 |
WORTH REPEATING.....
Originally posted by JulietNN:
So I take it then, you are going to keep on showing the photographs on line and in your portfolio?
I agree with Jeb on some of his points. You did do a lot of work and it does appear that she was well informed throughout the process. I think that you should ask her the normal rate for a modeling session and explain why, but I also think she sent you a heartfelt plea and is desperate for these shots not to exist.
The morally right thing to do, is to consider it and do it. The morally right thing she should do is pay for your time. We all make mistakes in life and make decisions that we regret a month later, a year later, 6 years later and we all wish that we could redo our mistakes in our lives. She is trying to undo a mistake that she made.
Is it worth it to look at these photos and have a twinge every time you do. Are these photos of her , are they really going to make you money, no they are not, she she isn't that great of a model and shooting her in what looks like a crappy basement is not going to make you any money.
Asking her for money for the portrait session is perfectly within your right and she should consider that too. But if you are going to be like, "well that is going to $500 plus" does that then come down to blackmail. It kinda looks like it in my book.
Be fair with her, I am sure she will understand as well. |
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02/18/2010 09:01:59 PM · #56 |
This is a screwed up, no-win situation for the OP, and shame on this woman for not accepting responsibility for her actions.
Message edited by author 2010-02-18 21:11:50.
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02/18/2010 09:52:48 PM · #57 |
I can't see asking for money or else... As others have mentioned, it smacks of extortion.
At the same time, we are talking about a mind change 3 months later. Not 3 hours, or 3 days, 3 months. If this is an example of her decision making process, I think that unless she is shooting to be Sarah Palin, there is not much chance there.
That being said... I would pull any images that are not family friendly. I would not agree to anything in writing, and I would require the return of all images provided to her.
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02/18/2010 09:55:16 PM · #58 |
as an aside; I am seriously starting to wonder if  NikonJeb and  JulietNN were once married and now divorced? Seems like 75% of the threads on this site contain some form of you two arguing back and forth....I'm just curious....
back to the thread |
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02/18/2010 10:10:28 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
as an aside; I am seriously starting to wonder if NikonJeb and JulietNN were once married and now divorced? Seems like 75% of the threads on this site contain some form of you two arguing back and forth....I'm just curious....
back to the thread |
Must just be the Canon vs Nikon thing |
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02/18/2010 10:54:35 PM · #60 |
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02/19/2010 12:30:42 AM · #61 |
| It seems like you're blowing your losses out of proportion. How much extra did it really cost to turn the heat up a few degrees for a couple of hours on one day and use your lights? And how many actual hours of editing? It's a bummer, sure, but these are not major losses. It's not even worth discussing what you can legally do, just be a decent human being and cut the girl a break. Everyone does something they regret sometime. |
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02/19/2010 12:37:34 AM · #62 |
Finally.
A clear, calm voice of common sense.
Listen to it, OP.
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02/19/2010 06:32:32 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Finally.
A clear, calm voice of common sense.
Listen to it, OP. |
I love how easy it is for so many people to be so magnanimous with the OP's time, efforts, and feelings.
So it's common sense to acquiesce to an unreasonable demand? The hell with the principles involved? Who's actually using extortion here? I can't believe that any one of you wouldn't be unhappy were you in the OP's shoes.
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images? It's not like she's exhibiting any rational or reasonable behavior now. Why has she all of a sudden decided that she's "Not that kind of girl"? It was her idea for the attire and poses as I understand it. This isn't a case of remorse after a drunken weekend.
Blowing the losses out of proportion???? Really??? Who are you to be the judge of that? Do you work for free? Or for a pittance. The value of his time and efforts is not on you to decide. This woman could create havoc for a long time if she continues on the path she's taking. If she decides that it's all his fault somewhere along the line, she could trash his reputation in the area. What about that? At this point, what upside is there for him? If he "Does the right thing", what guarantee does he have that she'll go away.
If you really want to do the right thing, then there should be a third party arbiter. Do it by the book. both parties can agree to have an impartial thrid party decide what's fair. That way there's a legal record of what goes down and if she gets weird later, he's covered.
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02/19/2010 06:56:43 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...and shame on this woman for not accepting responsibility for her actions. |
Jeez, Jeb. Why don't you get your tar and feather bucket out for the poor teenager while you're at it.
She's what? 16? 17? 18? And is now regretting thinking it was a good idea to strip off, get some revealing underwear on, get down on her knees, perhaps stick her arse in the air, for middle aged men to take photos of. She seems to be thinking she wouldn't like that now. I'd say only a slimebag creep would make a fuss and refuse her that. Give her a break! |
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02/19/2010 06:59:28 AM · #65 |
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02/19/2010 07:00:58 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images? It's not like she's exhibiting any rational or reasonable behavior now. Why has she all of a sudden decided that she's "Not that kind of girl"? It was her idea for the attire and poses as I understand it. This isn't a case of remorse after a drunken weekend. |
I despair sometimes i really do. |
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02/19/2010 07:03:46 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by jminso:
How old is this girl? |
Thats what i was thinking. I assumed 16-18 judging by her email. If she is in her 20s i apologise for making it sound perhaps sleazier than it is, but i do think the principles still stand and her wishes should be taken in account, and in my view, honored. |
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02/19/2010 07:15:20 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...and shame on this woman for not accepting responsibility for her actions. |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Jeez, Jeb. Why don't you get your tar and feather bucket out for the poor teenager while you're at it.
She's what? 16? 17? 18? And is now regretting thinking it was a good idea to strip off, get some revealing underwear on, get down on her knees, perhaps stick her arse in the air, for middle aged men to take photos of. She seems to be thinking she wouldn't like that now. I'd say only a slimebag creep would make a fuss and refuse her that. Give her a break! |
Okay......now I'm a slimebag creep???
Yeah.....it's perfectly okay to not be accountable for whatever reason if you change your mind.
You're also implying that this whole scenario, which as I recall the OP saying was her idea, is now somehow about something sleazy?
When did that happen?
Somehow this 27 year old guy who's having a problem with a flaky model is some nasty old man?
Nice!
Oh, and by the way, this is the US.....if this girl was under 18, she couldn't legally sign a release.....one or the other of her parents would have to do that.
I was wondering how long it would take 'til someone made this out to be sleazy.
Nice work!
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02/19/2010 07:18:26 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images? It's not like she's exhibiting any rational or reasonable behavior now. Why has she all of a sudden decided that she's "Not that kind of girl"? It was her idea for the attire and poses as I understand it. This isn't a case of remorse after a drunken weekend. |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I despair sometimes i really do. |
Despair all you want. Answer the question then.....
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images?
This guy stands every chance of this girl creating problems down the road.
I'm sure it never occurred to him two weeks ago that this would happen.
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02/19/2010 07:20:40 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
i do think the principles still stand and her wishes should be taken in account, and in my view, honored. |
So, spell it out....
The hell with his time & effort, the hell with any accountability on her part, and he's just supposed to chalk it up to his egregious inability to not be clairvoyant and see this coming?
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02/19/2010 07:27:03 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You're also implying that this whole scenario, which as I recall the OP saying was her idea, is now somehow about something sleazy?
When did that happen?
Somehow this 27 year old guy who's having a problem with a flaky model is some nasty old man?
Nice!
Oh, and by the way, this is the US.....if this girl was under 18, she couldn't legally sign a release.....one or the other of her parents would have to do that.
I was wondering how long it would take 'til someone made this out to be sleazy.
Nice work! |
Jeb, can you please learn, or at least try harder, to read what people actually post. Really, it is English. It is not that hard. |
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02/19/2010 07:29:48 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images? It's not like she's exhibiting any rational or reasonable behavior now. Why has she all of a sudden decided that she's "Not that kind of girl"? It was her idea for the attire and poses as I understand it. This isn't a case of remorse after a drunken weekend. |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I despair sometimes i really do. |
Despair all you want. Answer the question then.....
What guarantee does he have that this woman won't get all freaky another six months down the road and decide he kept some images?
This guy stands every chance of this girl creating problems down the road.
I'm sure it never occurred to him two weeks ago that this would happen. |
Well, maybe it is a U.S thing with the litigation heavy culture. I think it would be a weird, paranoid little world if i recieved that email and then acted on whether the girl will get all 'freaky' and caused problems down the line. |
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02/19/2010 07:33:27 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
harder, to read what people actually post. Really, it is English. It is not that hard. |
And is now regretting thinking it was a good idea to strip off, get some revealing underwear on, get down on her knees, perhaps stick her arse in the air, for middle aged men to take photos of.
I is jes' an ignurnt rednack.....please explain to this po' ol' dumass what this means.
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02/19/2010 07:35:32 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Okay......now I'm a slimebag creep??? |
Ha! Yes you are Slimeball! ;)
But yea, i do think that if a photographer recieved an email like the one in the OP and then said, 'Hard luck honey, i got your signature i'll do what i want' or something along those lines, then that is a pretty sleazy thing to do. |
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02/19/2010 07:40:17 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
harder, to read what people actually post. Really, it is English. It is not that hard. |
And is now regretting thinking it was a good idea to strip off, get some revealing underwear on, get down on her knees, perhaps stick her arse in the air, for middle aged men to take photos of.
I is jes' an ignurnt rednack.....please explain to this po' ol' dumass what this means. |
Well, that is essentially what it is, judging by the OPs portfolio and entries here. Thats the glamour and soft porn industries for you. Comes with the territory. My accusation of sleaziness was this bit though...She seems to be thinking she wouldn't like that now. I'd say only a slimebag creep would make a fuss and refuse her that. though really. For the record, i have not much against glamour or porn as long as all parties are willing and not exploited. Thats when it becomes sleazy though. |
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