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 01/04/2010 10:31:18 AM · #26
Originally posted by MattO:
The results of the challenge simply show that it doesn't matter what the challenge is, the voters are in awe of a pretty picture and it doesn't have to fit the challenge at all.


Occaisionally i'd agree with this statement but in this case i think it's simply not true. I think the voters here just have a more wide ranging understanding of the term 'portrait' than 'has to be sat in a tree'.

For the record, i didn't have time to vote in the challenge but i do think that the last thing that would cross my mind here with a bird in flight was DNMC.

Message edited by author 2010-01-04 10:36:39.
 01/04/2010 10:32:12 AM · #27
Originally posted by hopper:
a big part of doing well here involves understanding how people are going to vote ... even if you don't agree with how people are going to vote

Hey Kris - Do you mind if I post that to my profile page? It's a perfect quote for DPChallenge!
 01/04/2010 10:33:31 AM · #28
fine by me :)

Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by hopper:
a big part of doing well here involves understanding how people are going to vote ... even if you don't agree with how people are going to vote

Hey Kris - Do you mind if I post that to my profile page? It's a perfect quote for DPChallenge!
01/04/2010 10:39:54 AM · #29
You should have seen the discussion with the first Environmental Portrait challenge, whoa.

I took the "Portrait" aspect of the challenge as a key element, as you can tell from my entry, but I knew a lot of people wouldn't. IMO some of the birds in flight shots loosely qualify as portraits, others weren't even close.

But I will say, this challenge had some amazing images in it.
 01/04/2010 10:47:49 AM · #30
Originally posted by hopper:
fine by me :)

Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by hopper:
a big part of doing well here involves understanding how people are going to vote ... even if you don't agree with how people are going to vote

Hey Kris - Do you mind if I post that to my profile page? It's a perfect quote for DPChallenge!

Thanks! Done. :-)
 01/04/2010 10:49:11 AM · #31
Langdon likes to get cute with some of the titles of challenges. There have been many challenges where the title is not in compliance with the definition, so, for the most part, I ignore the title of the challenge and shoot for the definition. The definition said nothing about portrait, so I was not looking for portraits when voting -- I was looking for images that met the definition.

However, in defense of birds in flight, one style of portraiture is that of people doing their job -- I'd consider this a portrait , and he was indeed moving at the time.
 01/04/2010 11:15:48 AM · #32
this whole place makes me think too much of women--say 1 thing mean something else!
 01/04/2010 11:19:09 AM · #33
Originally posted by vawendy:
Langdon likes to get cute with some of the titles of challenges. There have been many challenges where the title is not in compliance with the definition, so, for the most part, I ignore the title of the challenge and shoot for the definition. The definition said nothing about portrait, so I was not looking for portraits when voting -- I was looking for images that met the definition.

However, in defense of birds in flight, one style of portraiture is that of people doing their job -- I'd consider this a portrait , and he was indeed moving at the time.


That would be an environmental portrait, a genre within portrait.

I take the other approach, I think Challenge title trumps challenge description. A lot of people never even read the description. The description didn't mention "portrait" because it should have been understood from the challenge title.

Message edited by author 2010-01-04 11:19:23.
 01/04/2010 11:29:58 AM · #34
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Langdon likes to get cute with some of the titles of challenges. There have been many challenges where the title is not in compliance with the definition, so, for the most part, I ignore the title of the challenge and shoot for the definition. The definition said nothing about portrait, so I was not looking for portraits when voting -- I was looking for images that met the definition.

However, in defense of birds in flight, one style of portraiture is that of people doing their job -- I'd consider this a portrait , and he was indeed moving at the time.


That would be an environmental portrait, a genre within portrait.

I take the other approach, I think Challenge title trumps challenge description. A lot of people never even read the description. The description didn't mention "portrait" because it should have been understood from the challenge title.


thanks glad you said that! i wonder too where the term birds in flight came from also if a portrait includes them?
 01/04/2010 11:40:43 AM · #35
This could be one of those topics where the answer is different depending on your knowledge of a certain type of photography. When somebody suggests that a bird portrait would be used for identification and that a flight shoot is something different it suddenly occurs to be that there could be specific categories of bird photography that I am completely unaware of. I wouldn't have a clue about bird photography, but the same situation could happen if I shot for a challenge called "beauty". I immediately think of an image focused on physical beauty, tightly cropped and with a very specific style of lighting. Many here would interpret the challenge completely differently.
 01/04/2010 11:42:04 AM · #36
Originally posted by rider:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Langdon likes to get cute with some of the titles of challenges. There have been many challenges where the title is not in compliance with the definition, so, for the most part, I ignore the title of the challenge and shoot for the definition. The definition said nothing about portrait, so I was not looking for portraits when voting -- I was looking for images that met the definition.

However, in defense of birds in flight, one style of portraiture is that of people doing their job -- I'd consider this a portrait , and he was indeed moving at the time.


That would be an environmental portrait, a genre within portrait.

I take the other approach, I think Challenge title trumps challenge description. A lot of people never even read the description. The description didn't mention "portrait" because it should have been understood from the challenge title.


thanks glad you said that! i wonder too where the term birds in flight came from also if a portrait includes them?


I often wish that challenges didn't have a title, only a description. Too often there's a small amount of conflict between the two and you don't know which to follow.
 01/04/2010 11:44:55 AM · #37
yes, portrait - people in flight.

yes, portrait - posed

, yes, portrait - candid

all portraits! :)

I feel the same way about the bird shots--all portraits. Look at a flying bird as more of an action or environmental portrait. ;)
 01/04/2010 11:50:20 AM · #38
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by rider:
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Langdon likes to get cute with some of the titles of challenges. There have been many challenges where the title is not in compliance with the definition, so, for the most part, I ignore the title of the challenge and shoot for the definition. The definition said nothing about portrait, so I was not looking for portraits when voting -- I was looking for images that met the definition.

However, in defense of birds in flight, one style of portraiture is that of people doing their job -- I'd consider this a portrait , and he was indeed moving at the time.


That would be an environmental portrait, a genre within portrait.

I take the other approach, I think Challenge title trumps challenge description. A lot of people never even read the description. The description didn't mention "portrait" because it should have been understood from the challenge title.


thanks glad you said that! i wonder too where the term birds in flight came from also if a portrait includes them?


I often wish that challenges didn't have a title, only a description. Too often there's a small amount of conflict between the two and you don't know which to follow.


perhaps the thing to do is satisfy all info given, not just pick and choose which parts you would like to follow. I had what i thought was a killer flight shot that i liked much better, for me it was more personally satisfying,that i didn't enter because it was not a portrait it my opinion
 01/04/2010 11:52:03 AM · #39
Originally posted by mpeters:
yes, portrait - people in flight.

yes, portrait - posed

, yes, portrait - candid

all portraits! :)

I feel the same way about the bird shots--all portraits. Look at a flying bird as more of an action or environmental portrait. ;)


and you are correct,but where in the title or discription did it say action or environmental?
 01/04/2010 12:12:40 PM · #40
Originally posted by rider:


and you are correct,but where in the title or discription did it say action or environmental?


It didn't. Just like it didn't say "action portrait" in this one.

01/04/2010 12:17:00 PM · #41
Originally posted by rider:
Originally posted by mpeters:


all portraits! :)

I feel the same way about the bird shots--all portraits. Look at a flying bird as more of an action or environmental portrait. ;)


and you are correct,but where in the title or discription did it say action or environmental?


Portrait of a Wild Bird--- Photograph a wild bird in a natural environment -- no birds on leashes, perched on gloves, no zoos, no bird feeders -- just wild and natural.

It didn't, so I would say any and all variations are valid portraits. The wild and natural part from the challenge description certainly opens up the entries to action(flying) or environmental(perched on a rock). Your opinion is your own, but I don't believe that it has much support.
 01/04/2010 12:24:48 PM · #42
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Occaisionally i'd agree with this statement but in this case i think it's simply not true. I think the voters here just have a more wide ranging understanding of the term 'portrait' than 'has to be sat in a tree'.

For the record, i didn't have time to vote in the challenge but i do think that the last thing that would cross my mind here with a bird in flight was DNMC.

I agree!
 01/04/2010 12:32:43 PM · #43
don't really care how much support i have as i asked for the challenge and got it and it was not what i had in mind. some people got it! I am greatful for the challenge and the chance to shoot for it( i spent 2 full days devoted to it)but i don't understand people saying they choose to disreguard this or that part of the title or discription and flaunting that like their point of view is valid and mine is not!
 01/04/2010 12:35:11 PM · #44
I do have some sympathy with those who made an active effort to get what they considered to be a true portrait image.

For what it's worth I did read the title of the challenge AND the description and I made an active choice to portray a bird wild and free. Like others I took a bunch of pictures - many that would easily fit a tighter definition but I chose to offer my image because it was in flight, I figured this to be the essence of the bird. My shot was taken with the bird fairly still in the air, exhibiting its natural scavenging behaviour - to my mind it is both still (posed) but still dynamic. Is support by wings really different to support by branch? Is scavenging behaviour less natural than predatory behaviour?

Also, I am on record in the scores thread saying that I thought there were plenty of better pictures than mine so I'm not defending my image as the blue ribbon but I am standing up for the legitimacy of my (active and informed) choice of image selection.
 01/04/2010 12:42:00 PM · #45
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I do have some sympathy with those who made an active effort to get what they considered to be a true portrait image.

For what it's worth I did read the title of the challenge AND the description and I made an active choice to portray a bird wild and free. Like others I took a bunch of pictures - many that would easily fit a tighter definition but I chose to offer my image because it was in flight, I figured this to be the essence of the bird. My shot was taken with the bird fairly still in the air, exhibiting its natural scavenging behaviour - to my mind it is both still (posed) but still dynamic. Is support by wings really different to support by branch? Is scavenging behaviour less natural than predatory behaviour?

Also, I am on record in the scores thread saying that I thought there were plenty of better pictures than mine so I'm not defending my image as the blue ribbon but I am standing up for the legitimacy of my (active and informed) choice of image selection.


I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone who entered any image in the challenge, yours was a wonderful image,but i see now why as photographers get better around here they leave, and i think its because they try to hold themselves to the most high standerds thay are capable of and if the majority of the people here choose not to well it just won't do.
 01/04/2010 12:56:25 PM · #46
Charles-- your entry was a fine portrait of a wild bird--as were #'s 1-13. I would humbly suggest that your take on this challenge is rather narrow, even oppressively so. IMO, the key limitation of the challenge was to keep zoo and trained birds of prey out of the challenge.
 01/04/2010 01:01:19 PM · #47
Originally posted by rider:
I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone who entered any image in the challenge, yours was a wonderful image,but i see now why as photographers get better around here they leave, and i think its because they try to hold themselves to the most high standerds thay are capable of and if the majority of the people here choose not to well it just won't do.


... suggesting of course that those of us still here have not yet reached that pinnacle yet, but who knows perhaps in time we will get better. :O)

I harbour no doubts that there are indeed some wonderful photographers that no longer participate on this site, but I have some serious reservations that they left because they held themselves up to loftier standards than us mere mortals.

When we consider that we have a variance in the interpretation of what constitures a "Portrait" surely we can understand that interpretation in this and many other instances is left to the individual.

Ray
 01/04/2010 01:02:56 PM · #48
Originally posted by rider:
don't really care how much support i have as i asked for the challenge and got it and it was not what i had in mind. some people got it! I am greatful for the challenge and the chance to shoot for it( i spent 2 full days devoted to it)but i don't understand people saying they choose to disreguard this or that part of the title or discription and flaunting that like their point of view is valid and mine is not!


I tend to fall on your side of the debate, however, 24 out of the top 30 frimly fall into what you are calling "portrait" as I understand it. I think the fact that 4 out of the top 5 don't is what's at issue.

I think all in all it was a great challenge. You will always have a difference of opinion on what is appropiate for a challenge and what isn't. Ultimately the voters will decide.
01/04/2010 01:17:03 PM · #49
Originally posted by scarbrd:


I take the other approach, I think Challenge title trumps challenge description. A lot of people never even read the description. The description didn't mention "portrait" because it should have been understood from the challenge title.


This makes no sense to me. The challenge title is just the title...the description tells you specifics. For example, one challenge now is Paul Simon Lyrics....but the description says title, lyrics, or album title...So if it's a picture of a song title or album title is it DQ to you?

The Title could be what it is to shorten the title. Now if the title for Portrait of a Wild Bird were instead "Photograph a wild bird in a natural environment -- no birds on leashes, perched on gloves, no zoos, no bird feeders -- just wild and natural." That's an exceptionally long title...hence instead of listing that it was simply Wild Birds, with expectations that you read the challenge description.

There are some challenge descriptions that don't require a definition...ie if it was just "Birds" and the expectation was that any photo of a bird would count ....then I can understand just using the title.

You can't take away from people because you decided that you didn't need to read the full instructions. When you bu your camera, you don't take it back for beind defective because you didn't read the instructions that said insert battery.

For all purposes, the description should really trump the title.
01/04/2010 01:26:14 PM · #50
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
I would say that a portrait can definitely involve a moving image whether it is an animal or not. This is a good example of a portrait of a sportsman i'd say...



Its an extremely wide ranging term though and i think in this case the choice of the term 'portrait' for the challenge wasn't great as it obviously confused some people. I think the main point of the challenge was the 'wild bird' part. The blue ribbon was certainly a portrait of a wild bird and a very worthy winner i'd say.


I don't even consider that close to a portrait. That is a sports action photo. No other category that could go in, in my mind.
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