Photographer's Rights: The Flip Side.....

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

12/15/2009 07:35:44 AM · #1

I see a fair amount of squawking about this topic, and I've also noticed in those threads that when someone says, "Yeah, but what about what the other guy thinks?", there doesn't seem to be much consideration put to the other side of the equation. I see a lot of espousing theory and law, from people who are neither lawyers nor political scientists, not that it means one cannot have an opinion, but to what end?

Personally, I don't have problems when I'm out there shooting. I'm polite, more often than not, if I perceive that there may very well be someone who would be in charge of granting permission to shoot, I seek them out and ask them, and I *never, EVER* give someone who has every right to *ask* me what I'm doing, an attitude.

*FOR ME*.....it's just not worth the headache of what can happen when I'm in someone else's territory, real or perceived, and being seen as someone who's doing something that *can* have ugly connotations. We as respectable photogs have the same amount of disdain as the next guy for that offensive person that sticks a camera in your face and shoots off a flash in a situation where maybe, *you* don't want to be photographed. Do you have the right to tell that person to delete the pic? To tell him to get out of your face? After all, if you're in "public domain", too bad about your luck if you don't like it, right?

I guess one of the biggest issues I have is that we reap what we sow. Just as someone mentioned in another thread that we are not all paranoid freaks just because you got frisked in an airport, neither are all photographers pushy, obnoxious jerks with no consideration. But there have been enough of them out there creating problems for others that it's now a cross we have to bear whether we like it or not.

Case in point.....a friend of mine was opening for Dicky Betts at a local concert hall, and he's been a guitar hero of mine for most of my life. I asked him if he could pull any strings and get me in with my camera, I promised no flash, and he asked the management. They said no, so I left my camera at home. So what do I see during the first five minutes of the show? No less than four people with the flash on their P&Ss that they smuggled in popping off! Let me tell you how freakin' rude *I* felt that was!
And are these people going to be the first people to bitch when they start doing serious searches at this venue in the future? Is it going to piss *ME* off when I get seriously patted down? You bet! Yet I'll have to take it, or not get in, and truly, I certainly cannot fault the management who has discovered that the honor system simply does not work.

I had another thing happen on Sunday that left me completely at a loss.....I stopped in at this warehouse that a guy has converted into this really cool retro store.....he has this huge collection of immaculate stuff that I threw out decades ago. I saw a copy of Morrison Hotel in mint condition for $19! (Look it up, you young whippersnappers! LOL!!!) I asked him if it would be okay if I took some pictures, and got the surprise of my life. He asked me what I wanted them for, and pretty much indicated to me that he was not interested in having them used as background theme for someone else's website, or advertising promo for something outside his business. I thought this was kind of strange until he told me about how THREE different photographers had availed themselves of his generous nature; he had moved things around in the third floor of the place and set up a studio, and though all three had promised him images from the shoots, he had yet to receive ONE image!

I had no idea what to say to the man......let's face it, what credibility would I have to say, "Well, I'm different, I'll actually send the images.".

Riiiiiiiiiiight! He's going to believe me! 'Cause yeah, I *am* the guy who will come through. So I left quietly, and somewhat ashamed to be a part of a group of people so thoughtless and self-centered. The worst part? I know the one guy he was talking about, and I would not have thought he'd do that.

So.....in closing, I want to reiterate that I just don't have problems 'cause I feel that I can manage just fine to keep my level of risk very low, and with the attitude that I am putting myself in others' space and am respectful of that, I simply do not have problems. I am always willing to leave quietly, and with no fuss if someone does not care to have me taking photographs, yet I have met some wonderful people who have afforded me fabulous shooting experiences simply because I took a few moments to talk nicely to them. It's how I ended up the official photographer for the M&H Railroad, among other things. Quite a few of my challenge images, ones that I'm especially proud of, technically should not have been taken in the first place.

Maybe, it's not such a bad thing to put yourself in someone else's shoes when you talk to them about why you are there in their area with an intimidating camera, a bag, and a tripod. And I normally only have my camera when I'm out shooting.

You might be surprised to find that if you're nice, sympathetic to their situation, and agreeable, what might come of your encounter.

pamelasue

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/15/2009 08:07:48 AM · #2

great post, Jeb ...

12/15/2009 08:23:10 AM · #3

Thats all very sweet and admirable Jeb but it doesn't really have anything to do with the issues i'm more concerned with relating to the misuse of recently introduced anti-terror laws by the police in the UK (and perhaps the US, i don't know). In the other thread some people were of the opinion that the police were 'only doing their job' and it was acceptable in the post-911 landscape. I'd disagree totally. If anything it's the police not doing their job at all and stretching their legal powers to an unacceptable degree. Perhaps i've become overly cynical about the good intentions of many of the police in the UK, but after many years of personal experiences with some really horrible, bullying, racsist and downright dodgy police officers, it's hard to see all of them as noble heros defending the law. I have, of course, met many great coppers as well though (including a childhood friend) so i'm not tarring them all with the same brush. I can't really agree with the notion that we as citizens should just keep our heads down and try and let them get on with their job. That idea comes across as pretty spineless to me and the start of a dangerous path. As police they are not about the law and should be scruitinised and held accountable for digressions. The police stopping, searching and moving on photographers is just one small part of the overall problem. The anti-terror laws have been increasingly used to stop people taking photographs at legal demonstrations, the police often caught covering up any identifying numbers on uniforms. Recently a man died a at a demonstration in London and some of the underhand and aggressive tactics of the police were clearly on display. I just don't have that much confidence the police as a whole, really, to be able to just 'keep my nose clean' and let them get on with it. I'm reminded of the man who was murdered by the police as a suspected terrorist in South London a few years ago and the huge amount of lies and corruption that came to light over the police attempted cover up..

But, all thats going off topic from your original post really and most of that i agree with.

Message edited by author 2009-12-15 08:39:52.

12/15/2009 08:24:12 AM · #4

I just found this in another thread....

Flickr toys has a great tool to make an official looking badge. I made one up that says "Event Photographer" and slid it into one of those clear ID holders with the clip on it. Clip that to my shirt or jacket and I'm in! Act like you belong there and most people think you do.

Certainly not anything unethical or underhanded in this kind of scenario.......

Nobody should get their nose out of joint to be held up while a phone call is made to verify credentials, right?

MelonMusketeer

Nikon D7000

Nikon MF 50mm f/1.4

12/15/2009 08:34:48 AM · #5

Another bonus is that you can meet people who will become great friends along the way with just a few polite words when you are not pushy at the first contact. Your connection at the RR operation is a good example.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

12/15/2009 08:39:46 AM · #6

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Thats all very sweet and admirable Jeb but it doesn't really have anything to do with the issues i'm more concerned with relating to the misuse of recently introduced anti-terror laws by the police in the UK (and perhaps the US, i don't know). In the other thread some people were of the opinion that the police were 'only doing their job' and it was acceptable in the post-911 landscape. I'd disagree totally. If anything it's the police not doing their job at all and stretching their legal powers to an unacceptable degree. Perhaps i've become overly cynical about the good intentions of many of the police in the UK, but after many years of personal experiences with some really horrible, bullying, racsist and downright dodgy police officers, it's hard to see all of them as noble heros defending the law. I have, of course, met many great coppers as well though (including a childhood friend) so i'm not tarring them all with the same brush. I can't really agree with the notion that we as citizens should just keep our heads down and try and let them get on with their job. That idea comes across as pretty spineless to me and the start of a dangerous path. As police they are not about the law and should be scruitinised and held accountable for digressions. The police stopping, searching and moving on photographers is just one small part of the overall problem. The anti-terror laws have been increasingly used to stop people taking photographs at legal demonstrations, the police often caught covering up any identifying numbers on uniforms. Recently a man died a at a demonstration in London and some of the underhand and aggressive tactics of the police were clearly on display. I just don't have that much confidence the police as a whole, really, to be able to just 'keep my nose clean' and let them get on with it. I'm reminded of the man who was murdered by the police as a suspected terrorist in South London a few years ago and the huge amount of lies and corruption that came to light over the police attempted cover up..

But, all thats going off topic with your original post really and most of that i agree with.

Well....for starter's, this *IS* a different thread, posted primarily to hopefully get people to remember that there are two sides to every story.

My concern for the most part is the fallout that comes to those of us who don't push the issue on the spot where it could all to easily escalate into a situation that you cannot recover from, like injury or death.

There's no reason that if you feel that your rights are being horribly abused that you cannot take down the pertinent information and institute a suit, call a civil liberties organization, and/or contact the local news agency.

To me, it just seems nuts to argue a point of civil law on the street, especially if you're arguing it with someone who A.) Has a completely different concept of it than you do, and B.) The power to hurt and/or imprison you 'til it gets sorted out in a civil manner.

But it's your choice......just *DO* remember, that it's also possible that your behavior towards someone in authority on site may have an effect on how the next photog to come along is treated.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

12/15/2009 08:44:52 AM · #7

Although this does not address the police and terrorism related issues, that was a good explanation of the other point of view. They are not usually being difficult for fun. Often one gets the short stick because of what some one else did in the past, destroying any goodwill for those that follow.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/15/2009 08:46:03 AM · #8

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Well....for starter's, this *IS* a different thread, posted primarily to hopefully get people to remember that there are two sides to every story.

You're right it is. I went off on a bit of a rant there!

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

My concern for the most part is the fallout that comes to those of us who don't push the issue on the spot where it could all to easily escalate into a situation that you cannot recover from, like injury or death.

There's no reason that if you feel that your rights are being horribly abused that you cannot take down the pertinent information and institute a suit, call a civil liberties organization, and/or contact the local news agency.

To me, it just seems nuts to argue a point of civil law on the street, especially if you're arguing it with someone who A.) Has a completely different concept of it than you do, and B.) The power to hurt and/or imprison you 'til it gets sorted out in a civil manner.

But it's your choice......just *DO* remember, that it's also possible that your behavior towards someone in authority on site may have an effect on how the next photog to come along is treated.

That all makes sense. I think that with all the media attention on this issue, and with the police themselves being told to lay off photographers, that things will blow over soonish. That does leave the wider problems such as the clamp down at demos etc though.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/15/2009 10:30:12 AM · #9

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

... That does leave the wider problems such as the clamp down at demos etc though.

I can't speak for the police procedures relating to demonstrations where you live, but here in Canada demonstrators are duly informed by the police of the procedures to be adhered to, and the next course of action the police intend to initiate.

The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.

Ray

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/15/2009 12:33:47 PM · #10

Originally posted by RayEthier:

The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem ...

In the US in the 1960-70s this was shown to often be the FBI ...

Jeb: don't the police also have the obligation to treat citizens respectfully and politely until given just cause to do otherwise?

ericwoo

Nikon Z7II

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

12/15/2009 01:02:23 PM · #11

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by RayEthier:
The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem ...

In the US in the 1960-70s this was shown to often be the FBI ...

Jeb: don't the police also have the obligation to treat citizens respectfully and politely until given just cause to do otherwise?

They absolutely do have this responsibility. However, the line of just cause that switches the officer from friend to foe in the eyes of the individual can be very thin and vary from officer to officer. I agree with Jeb in that too many of 'us' are pushing to see where that line is. Use common sense, be polite, and comply with requests from the police. It all seems pretty clear and simple. If there are issues beyond that, address them through the proper avenues and channels. Since joining the EMS profession some decades ago, my mantra has often been "Rule #1: Don't fuck with the police." That will most often keep you well out of trouble's path.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

12/15/2009 01:08:50 PM · #12

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Jeb: don't the police also have the obligation to treat citizens respectfully and politely until given just cause to do otherwise?

Absolutely!

That's not ever in in dispute in my view.

And in Utopia, all people act as they're supposed to, and never flaunt their authority......8>)

I'm simply suggesting the the most sensible way to deal with a situation where you may know you're in the right, yet whomever is questioning you does not, is to not engage in a direct confrontation at that time, especially in the case of a police officer.

You can always take his name, and/or badge number and pursue the situation in whatever manner you choose later if you feel you've been wronged, and as long as you can prove it, you win.

I'm starting to think my views on the subject are different than most, and that my experiences have a way of working out much better than for most judging from the tone of some of these posts. I'm reminded of a time about two months ago that I stopped at midnight in a construction zone on the highway. I was shooting two huge cranes lifting an enormous steel beam to put it in place on bridge pilings, and while I was leaning over a concrete barrier, a state police officer pulled up and got out of his car. I said good evening to him, and asked him if my being there was not permitted. He told me that I wasn't really supposed to be there, so I asked him if I should leave. He just smiled and told me to go ahead, but not to get in anyone's way, got back in his car and left.

Maybe I'm just a lucky guy......8>)

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

12/15/2009 01:35:16 PM · #13

Originally posted by GeneralE:

That may very well be true General, but more recent events, particularly those involving violence and the gratuitous destruction of property were initiated by anarchists that had infiltrated an otherwise peaceful demonstration.

Ray

12/15/2009 01:42:40 PM · #14

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
... That does leave the wider problems such as the clamp down at demos etc though.

I can't speak for the police procedures relating to demonstrations where you live, but here in Canada demonstrators are duly informed by the police of the procedures to be adhered to, and the next course of action the The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.

Ray

I don't deny that that happens, but another sad truth is that very often the Police are alarmingly heavy handed and provocative and quite often go outside any lawful remit that they have.

Nikon NIKKOR Z 24-120 f/4 S

12/15/2009 01:56:19 PM · #15

With regards to the man who died recently in London at a demonstration, here's a bit of footage that was used in the inquiry into his death. Doesn't really come across as a rampaging anarchist to me. Being knocked to the ground killed him, even though it wasn't a savage beating or similar. The point is that his death was caused by the police and their attempts to resist being held responsible for it should be in question. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUMhGZhOP8w

Perhaps going off topic a bit.

ericwoo

Nikon Z7II

12/15/2009 02:17:40 PM · #16

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
... That does leave the wider problems such as the clamp down at demos etc though.

I can't speak for the police procedures relating to demonstrations where you live, but here in Canada demonstrators are duly informed by the police of the procedures to be adhered to, and the next course of action the The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.

Ray

I don't deny that that happens, but another sad truth is that very often the Police are alarmingly heavy handed and provocative and quite often go outside any lawful remit that they have.

until you walk a mile in their shoes...

12/15/2009 02:28:43 PM · #17

Originally posted by ericwoo:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
... That does leave the wider problems such as the clamp down at demos etc though.

I can't speak for the police procedures relating to demonstrations where you live, but here in Canada demonstrators are duly informed by the police of the procedures to be adhered to, and the next course of action the The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.

Ray

I don't deny that that happens, but another sad truth is that very often the Police are alarmingly heavy handed and provocative and quite often go outside any lawful remit that they have.

until you walk a mile in their shoes...

I heard of someone once who tried that defence at court. Apparently it doesn't wash.

FireBird

12/15/2009 03:37:41 PM · #18

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

don't push the issue on the spot where it could all to easily escalate into a situation that you cannot recover from, like injury or death.

This is the part that is truly a shame in the US anyway. That anyone would limit their legal activities because they fear injury or DEATH from a sworn officer of the law.

I agree much of your original post about playing nice. Except..... when you associate yourself with all photographers and seem to want to take on the shame of other people's actions. This I fail to understand as you have absolutely no control over any other human being on the planet. Instead of just bowing your head and slinking away from the place you really wanted to photograph, you could have told him you weren't like the others at all. You'd bring your computer and could show the work in process and print on site proofs. He'd still have to trust you for any prints you'd have to do off site but you could temper that by offering to let him have the original files that he selected as his favorites. Burned on a CD before you left the premises. All he could say was no. And you would thank him and say you understand, leave him a business card, and leave with your head held high. But I suspect this crossed your mind after reading your last few posts. You seem to be a very thoughtful and caring photog!

FireBird

12/15/2009 03:44:16 PM · #19

Originally posted by RayEthier:

The sad truth about demonstrations is that the real cause of the problems rest with certain groups that infiltrate demonstrations and proceed to cause mayhem and destroy public and private properties, and innocent demonstrators get caught up in the ensuing melee.

Ray

Yup, and sometimes the infiltrators, or agent provocateurs, if you wish, are the very people you wouldn't expect.

Message edited by author 2009-12-15 15:49:08.

FireBird

12/15/2009 03:46:47 PM · #20

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Maybe I'm just a lucky guy......8>)

Nope. You just look like you work for the gumment. LOL