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12/14/2009 05:05:18 PM · #26 |
Earlier in the thread somebody mentioned working couples. Of the working couples that I have meet, most developed a relationship while working together and were probably emotionally involved with each other long before anybody was asked out on a date. I could see this type of situation happening with a model and photographer who work together frequently. In this situation it's clear that both parties are "all in", so to speak, and the first discussion is usually about how to avoid getting fired. Of course this is much different from hitting it off on one shoot and asking for a date. Both a photographer and model need the ability to build personal relationships quickly in order to be successful at getting the best possible images. Both the photographer and model need to trust that they be be open and let some chemistry evolve without worrying it turning into an awkward moment. My answer is no, you cannot ask a model out because it's a violation of the trust that must develop between the model and photographer. If you BOTH fall in love while working and the relationship evolves into something much bigger, then you're just one of the lucky people who finds love without looking for it.
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 17:07:05. |
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12/14/2009 05:30:09 PM · #27 |
Well, for my personal situation I'd never date my models. For two reasons...
1) I'm married and my wife would kill me.
2) My main models are a 10 and 13 year old girls. Which would be illegal and immoral.
Now...if I were single and the girl was the same age...It then all depends on the situation. Which means I have no real answer to this other than it depends. |
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12/14/2009 05:30:41 PM · #28 |
This thread is driving me completely crazy with the responses and comments being presented.
This will be long winded, so fair warning in advance.
The OP Is asking about Dating between Photographer/Model. Not about flirting, or other behavior. The idea of dating is that two people agreed to meet for a preplanned event. A date can be with court, or a golf date. One can have a lunch/dinner date to discuss business. However I believe in this instance it is a date used to find the compatibility between two people. A date that creates a situation where two people can be alone, away from others in order to learn more about the other person.
Now, let us clear the air on what a photographer is. A male or female who photographs something. We could colour it a million different colours but we will say the person with the camera. Now a model is the person male/female who is the subject of said photographer. Now we can guess at a male/female relationship or female/male relationship but we also have to understand the possibility of a male/male and female/female relationship with the photographer/model relationship. So you see, sex has absolutely no position in the OPs original question of dating, because a date is stereotypically designed for a 'couple' couple meaning two people.
Now, I see it as this, who is anyone to say who you can and cannot date?
With that being said, we look at a it from a business/professional standpoint. Typically it is known that two people who are in a relationship/dating may show favoritism towards the other. Now this does not even have to be a romantic relationship, good-friends can show favoritism. One of the reasons why in a recent verdict in Fl. I believe, that lawyers are unable to befriend a judge on facebook.
Anyway, business is business. However in this industry a client pays for a product. The client pays for both the model and the photographer. Or the client pays the photographer to handle everything and the photographer uses the clients money to not only pay the model but also the hair stylist, wardrobe, makeup, lighting, set builders ect. (dependent on the project) Now, as I look at it, as two people grow to know each other, to learn about each other it makes it easier to to create fantastic images because the model knows what the photographer wants without the photographer saying exactly and the photographer knows the limits of the model. This is also true when you continuously work with the same models over and over again. Same thing happens. Also what happens is you get to learn about each other on a more personal level because of the constant interaction. Perhaps feelings develop and only a fool pushes away.
Boris Vallejo and Julie Bell constantly pose/model for each other for their paintings. They understand the others work so well that they make the best base subjects.
However, let me play a bit more of the devil here. What about the type of photographer/model? Not everyone is a Wal-Mart photo specialist who shoots straight, clean, duplicatable portraits day in and day out. Some photographers shoot nudes, some shoot fetish, some shoot fashion or glamour or techno or gothic or whatever. As we look at it some models do the same styles.
Now we look at a nude photographer dating a nude model, or a portrait photographer dating a nude model. What is the idea here? Would the photographer be comfortable enough in their own securities to allow the person they are dating to model nude for someone? What about if this model did fetish rope work? Is the photographer able to be secure to allow the model to be bound? What about Suspension? What if the model was propositioned by playboy? Visa Versa, would a model who only does clothed fashion be secure enough to allow the photographer to shoot these types of images to be around these types of people?
Should a photographer and model date? I do not see any reason why they should not. If there are feelings there, if there is a desire to date between the parties, why not?
Now, the whole, what if it spoils it can ruin the rep of either party. True and not true. Both reps can be soiled just as easily but it is only the fool who takes the word of an 'EX' over another. If you base your decisions on what an 'EX' says then you really need to figure something out in life.
Also, as adults and professionals I would hope that it would be handled in a mature way if two people decided to date and then decided to break off. However it is not always the case. Some people feel more hurt/betrayed and feel as if they need to lash out. Which takes us back to being a fool to listen to an 'EX'.
To sit there and say the modeling and fashion industry is centered around sexuality is naive. However, during particular types of photographic shoots one does have to understand the model is hired for their sexuality and they are also performance artists. They want the viewer to feel as if they are the wanted, so the photographer is the direct viewer and if the photographer is unable to separate the performance from reality they should find another industry.
One of my horror shoots the model was yelling/screaming at me and threatening my life. The model was absolutely berserk and showing true pent up emotion. Did I fear for my life. For a split second I did because the emotion was real. However I was also able to understand I am holding a camera and the model is giving me exactly what I asked for. The shots came out unbelievable because of that emotion. yet here I am writing a long winded speech.
I feel I have stated the ground fairly well. But do not for a second think I am foolish or that I am unaware of several other issues within the field. I have heard stories of male photographers groping male models for kicks, models finding themselves in sexual situations they are unable to get out of as well as other horrendous activities. GWC Guys/Galls with cameras, those who are not real photographers, yet they desire to take images of nude models just because they are nude.
We can go on for days on this topic. But bottom line is, if there is feelings for a person and those feelings are reciprocal, it does not matter who the person is or what they do. You should do what you feel is right. Go on a date, learn more to see if there is possibility for developing a romantic relationship or keeping it strictly friends or photographer/model. You never know the outcome unless you try first.
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12/14/2009 05:43:11 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
To sit there and say the modeling and fashion industry is centered around sexuality is naive. However, during particular types of photographic sho
ots one does have to understand the model is hired for their sexuality and they are also performance artists. They want the viewer to feel as if they are the wanted, so the photographer is the direct viewer and if the photographer is unable to separate the performance from reality they should find another industry. |
Having been a commercial, runway and editorial model for 6 years in Canada, Japan and Milan in the late 80s, I'd say my description is based on industry experience.
Yep, yellow trunks dude is me when I was still as cute as a pimple on a baby. ;-) |
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12/14/2009 05:50:58 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by littlegett:
To sit there and say the modeling and fashion industry is centered around sexuality is naive. However, during particular types of photographic sho
ots one does have to understand the model is hired for their sexuality and they are also performance artists. They want the viewer to feel as if they are the wanted, so the photographer is the direct viewer and if the photographer is unable to separate the performance from reality they should find another industry. |
Having been a commercial, runway and editorial model for 6 years in Canada, Japan and Milan in the late 80s, I'd say my description is based on industry experience.
Yep, yellow trunks dude is me when I was still as cute as a pimple on a baby. ;-) |
Such a pretty Pimple you were. L()L
I would say much advertising is sexual based. Advertising for many products from bath soap to Budweiser. Sex sells, I do not dispute that. That is only one part of the industry. I can honestly tell you as well that not all nude photography is sexual based. Just because the model is nude does not make it pornography as many believe.
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12/14/2009 06:41:29 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
This thread is driving me completely crazy with the responses and comments being presented.
This will be long winded, so fair warning in advance.
The OP Is asking about Dating between Photographer/Model. Not about flirting, or other behavior. |
I stopped at that. The OP was asking about asking out a model. You have addressed dating after that point, which is completely irrelevant. We know dating a model ain't really BAD. Asking him/her out, though, may not lead to that. It may lead to an awkward "uhh...," to the end of the shoot or a really tensed up model, and possibly to the end of that model/photographer relationship.
If that professional relationship is supposed to be already over (end of the shoot, which was originally planned in advance to be a one-time deal) and you like each other, you probably had some success, so you're probably thinking about asking for another shoot... so then the professional relationship continues.
If the professional relationship is supposed to be over and you don't like each other, you probably won't be working again and you definitely wouldn't be asking each other out anyway.
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 18:44:01. |
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12/14/2009 06:46:34 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by albc28:
...this is simply a discussion about DATING among models and photographers.
Thank you |
Could have fooled me George917, I could swear this says DATING.
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12/14/2009 06:48:52 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
Originally posted by albc28:
...this is simply a discussion about DATING among models and photographers.
Thank you |
Could have fooled me George917, I could swear this says DATING. |
I could swear he said...
Originally posted by albc28:
As a young photographer, I got to thinking, is there ever a time when it's okay to ask a model out? If you and a model of similar age are getting along great at a shoot and sort of hitting it off, is it ever okay to cross the line and ask her out? |
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 18:49:08. |
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12/14/2009 07:04:46 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by george917:
Originally posted by littlegett:
Originally posted by albc28:
...this is simply a discussion about DATING among models and photographers.
Thank you |
Could have fooled me George917, I could swear this says DATING. |
I could swear he said...
Originally posted by albc28:
As a young photographer, I got to thinking, is there ever a time when it's okay to ask a model out? If you and a model of similar age are getting along great at a shoot and sort of hitting it off, is it ever okay to cross the line and ask her out? |
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Then answer the question and don't jump into the discussion. Simple as that.
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12/14/2009 07:13:52 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
Then answer the question and don't jump into the discussion. Simple as that. |
I already did, before you. You jumped in, off topic ;)
ETA: I didn't respond to the OP, but to a different user. It seems you responded to no one.
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 19:14:35. |
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12/14/2009 07:15:02 PM · #36 |
Models and photographer are more like private contractors than co workers. Dating is not "unethical" as some suggest. Poor taste? There are only opinions on this.
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 19:15:25. |
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12/14/2009 07:15:36 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Models and photographer are more like private contractors than co workers. It's not "unethical" as some suggest. Poor taste? There are only opinions on this. |
Potentially disastrous results? You betcha. |
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12/14/2009 07:18:42 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by george917:
Potentially disastrous results? You betcha. |
As with any relation. What if you date someone in your social circle who has many of the same friends....same thing.
No risk, no reward.
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 19:19:40. |
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12/14/2009 07:32:00 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Originally posted by george917:
Potentially disastrous results? You betcha. |
As with any relation. What if you date someone in your social circle who has many of the same friends....same thing.
No risk, no reward. |
And besides, you can lounge around with mashed potato facial masks and watch America's top model while noshing on some "fierce" tofu burgers! ;-)
Message edited by author 2009-12-14 19:32:28. |
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12/14/2009 08:03:00 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by george917:
Potentially disastrous results? You betcha. |
Originally posted by neophyte:
As with any relation. What if you date someone in your social circle who has many of the same friends....same thing.
No risk, no reward. |
Risks & Rewards?????
I'm hoping you meant relationSHIP, and the social circle was outside your family circle.......8>)
(Do I hear banjo music??????)
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12/14/2009 08:15:42 PM · #41 |
| My wife won't let me date any of the models! :-) |
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12/14/2009 08:43:31 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by kawesttex:
My wife won't let me date any of the models! :-) |
my problem is my wife let me do anything i want. With wife so nice it hard to do anything outside marriage. Damn woman.
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12/15/2009 07:48:48 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
stop now before something happens you wish didn't. |
Well, it was playful back-and-forth for a while... |
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12/15/2009 07:52:24 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
Originally posted by george917:
Originally posted by littlegett:
Then answer the question and don't jump into the discussion. Simple as that. |
I already did, before you. You jumped in, off topic ;)
ETA: I didn't respond to the OP, but to a different user. It seems you responded to no one. |
I think perhaps you should grow up a little before jumping in yourself. Learn some etiquette. It is clear you are only here to stir the pot so do yourself a favor, stop now before something happens you wish didn't. |
both of you are right. So no need to argue with each other. I was looking for when is it okay to cross the line to ask a model out...that in entails the intial start of crossing the professional line. And I was also referring to models and photographers dating...so both answers are appreciated. |
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12/15/2009 08:00:37 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by littlegett:
However, let me play a bit more of the devil here. What about the type of photographer/model? Not everyone is a Wal-Mart photo specialist who shoots straight, clean, duplicatable portraits day in and day out. Some photographers shoot nudes, some shoot fetish, some shoot fashion or glamour or techno or gothic or whatever. As we look at it some models do the same styles.
Now we look at a nude photographer dating a nude model, or a portrait photographer dating a nude model. What is the idea here? Would the photographer be comfortable enough in their own securities to allow the person they are dating to model nude for someone? What about if this model did fetish rope work? Is the photographer able to be secure to allow the model to be bound? What about Suspension? What if the model was propositioned by playboy? Visa Versa, would a model who only does clothed fashion be secure enough to allow the photographer to shoot these types of images to be around these types of people? |
Very good point. Alot of models cross over to different styles as well as photographers who shoot different styles. Meeting a model during a nude shoot, you'd expect her to shoot nude with someone else and you may find it acceptable....but if you met her during a fashion shoot and she shot nude with someone else you may not feel as comfortable about from a photographer standpoint or vice versa. From a dating standpoint it might make it more difficult to keep the relationship going without effecting ones career...
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12/15/2009 08:29:15 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by george917:
It may lead to an awkward "uhh...," to the end of the shoot or a really tensed up model, and possibly to the end of that model/photographer relationship.
If that professional relationship is supposed to be already over (end of the shoot, which was originally planned in advance to be a one-time deal) and you like each other, you probably had some success, so you're probably thinking about asking for another shoot... so then the professional relationship continues.
If the professional relationship is supposed to be over and you don't like each other, you probably won't be working again and you definitely wouldn't be asking each other out anyway. |
This is not quite true. You can like someone and their personality on a personal level, but not have the person be idea for the model photography you are interested in...ie...she may not really be fashion model material. Of course that would make it harder for you to try and ask her out if you didn't quite get the shoot you wanted, but you can still like each other. It's more likely when you have a great shoot that you begin liking eachother.
So if you have a great shoot and you know that you will want to work with the model in the future...is it not okay to ask her out? Is there a way to ask her out and still keep a working relationship if she says no? Or she says yes and you find you aren't really as compatible as you thought on the date?
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12/15/2009 08:35:52 AM · #47 |
I'd say if you ever plan to work with that model again, just don't do it. Especially if you have a really great photog/model relationship and if he/she works with you a lot for mutual profit.
BECAUSE:
If he/she turns you down when you ask, there is tension in the relationship afterward that wasn't there before and WILL translate to film. To take that statement further, if you have 2 or 3 dates and it doesn't become anything, it still creates tension. Now that model can also tell his/her model friends that you ask out your models (even if it was only a one time thing) and you may never have comfort in front of the lens again because that's what all your models will be thinking the whole time (i.e. "Is he/she going to hit on me?", "Is he/she looking at me like 'that'?", etc...).
Even worse, you could lose your ability to book a model altogether because word has gotten around that you ask your models out even though it was a one time deal and you don't normally do that.
ON THE FLIP SIDE:
Say you work together for a year and date the entire time and all is good THEN have an ugly breakup. Well, you will probably never be working with that model again (or any of his/her friends because friends don't 'do that' to friends).
One in 1,000,000 people would probably end up married out of a situation like this and continue to have a great working relationship.
It's easy to say that people can be adults and act accordingly. The sad truth is, most people don't act in a professional manner when they get their heart broken or are angry with their significant other. That's personal. That's humanity. When you are hurt, you lash out.
So, my answer is no. Never. Any way that it ends, it's just bad. I don't like one in 1,000,000 chances for things to work out and all be happy. Not good odds, IMO. :) |
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12/15/2009 08:42:42 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
I'd say if you ever plan to work with that model again, just don't do it. Especially if you have a really great photog/model relationship and if he/she works with you a lot for mutual profit.
BECAUSE:
If he/she turns you down when you ask, there is tension in the relationship afterward that wasn't there before and WILL translate to film. To take that statement further, if you have 2 or 3 dates and it doesn't become anything, it still creates tension. Now that model can also tell his/her model friends that you ask out your models (even if it was only a one time thing) and you may never have comfort in front of the lens again because that's what all your models will be thinking the whole time (i.e. "Is he/she going to hit on me?", "Is he/she looking at me like 'that'?", etc...).
Even worse, you could lose your ability to book a model altogether because word has gotten around that you ask your models out even though it was a one time deal and you don't normally do that.
ON THE FLIP SIDE:
Say you work together for a year and date the entire time and all is good THEN have an ugly breakup. Well, you will probably never be working with that model again (or any of his/her friends because friends don't 'do that' to friends).
One in 1,000,000 people would probably end up married out of a situation like this and continue to have a great working relationship.
It's easy to say that people can be adults and act accordingly. The sad truth is, most people don't act in a professional manner when they get their heart broken or are angry with their significant other. That's personal. That's humanity. When you are hurt, you lash out.
So, my answer is no. Never. Any way that it ends, it's just bad. I don't like one in 1,000,000 chances for things to work out and all be happy. Not good odds, IMO. :) |
You seem to be assuming that it WILL happen either of those ways. That either you aren't compatible and there is tension...she says no and there is tension...you break up and hate eachother...you get married.
One of my models asked me out a while back. We had worked together 3 or 4 times before she asked me out. We dated for a while. When we broke up it was just something that happened where we were headed in separate directions. She later got married and I shot her maternity photos (should have been a pretty awkward shoot right), but her husband was there for part of the shoot and left us for the other half. She was pretty comfortable with me the entire time and so was he...shoot turned out great. So it's possible to end the relationship on good terms.
But again...the difference is that the model asked me out and not the reverse. |
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12/15/2009 09:00:21 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by albc28:
You seem to be assuming that it WILL happen either of those ways. That either you aren't compatible and there is tension...she says no and there is tension...you break up and hate eachother...you get married.
One of my models asked me out a while back. We had worked together 3 or 4 times before she asked me out. We dated for a while. When we broke up it was just something that happened where we were headed in separate directions. She later got married and I shot her maternity photos (should have been a pretty awkward shoot right), but her husband was there for part of the shoot and left us for the other half. She was pretty comfortable with me the entire time and so was he...shoot turned out great. So it's possible to end the relationship on good terms.
But again...the difference is that the model asked me out and not the reverse. |
I would say that is the biggest difference of all and a mighty important one. |
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12/15/2009 09:25:09 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
I would say that is the biggest difference of all and a mighty important one. |
Why is it such an important difference? The same thing could have happened and could have been worse. She ask me out and I said no...probably could have been worse. Why is it okay for the model to ask the photographer out and not the reverse? |
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