When a country disposes of reason......

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

11/12/2009 06:04:17 PM · #1

Be sure never to touch a gun in the UK.

A complete absence of reason with respect to firearms. A man, wanting to remove a firearm from public access, is treated as a criminal.
When a government gives up reason, it breeds
contempt and hate in the governed. Anarchy is not far behind.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

11/12/2009 06:20:33 PM · #2

How many atrocities have been committed in the name of "just following orders"? They were following a poorly written law, but still the law. What a crock. At the same time, I can understand (not agreeing, mind you, just understanding) the police perspective on this. The police officers know they could be liable and their careers at risk if they were to not follow the law. They are not permitted to make a judgment call.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/12/2009 06:29:37 PM · #3

Well, the judge is probably allowed to consider the circumstances/motivation when imposing a sentence. Also, by removing the gun from the original location where he found the gentleman may have disturbed evidence which could have led to the arrest of the original poseessor of the gun -- more likely an actual criminal. Perhaps he's lucky there isn't an additional charge for obstructing the administration of justice.

I think my own first impulse would have been to call the police and report the gun to the police, rather than taking it to them myself, in which case they'd have their evidence and he wouldn't be in trouble.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

11/12/2009 06:43:57 PM · #4

Well timed post, so soon after yet another lunatic was able to easily obtain firearms in the U.S. and kill a whole bunch of people.

11/12/2009 08:22:13 PM · #5

I found a little more information on the person involved with the case.Six months before the shotgun magically appears in the persons garden. (UK for backyard)

I'm a great believer in coincidence but I don't this time. And for those who would have called the police and had them come pick it up... well google "constructive possession". You'll find he was screwed in any manner he wished to report this to the police. This is why I think he was set up for punishment because he got off on his earlier "crime".
His only
prison-free option, as a person who wished the weapon kept out of criminal hands would be to shatter the firing mechanism, wipe for prints and toss it into the street. This is what zero tolerance laws get you. Also know as absolute liability, or strict liability in the UK.

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/12/2009 08:52:26 PM · #6

Originally posted by posthumous:

Well timed post, so soon after yet another lunatic was able to easily obtain firearms in the U.S. and kill a whole bunch of people.

Oh sorry, you must have thought this was a post about gun control. Maybe I should have explained better. The gun was just part of the story..... get it now? Maybe you'd have understood better if I'd posted a link to a story that replaced the gun with a 10 pound
brick of hash? I didn't say firearms were the only things for which governments have abandoned reason. Zero tolerance is popping up everywhere.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

11/12/2009 08:58:02 PM · #7

Originally posted by FireBird:

..... get it now? Maybe you'd have understood better if I'd posted a link to a story that replaced the gun with a 10 pound
brick of hash?

Posthumous is a stoner?

Ahhhhh now, I understand his Ribbon Choices and off the wall comments, a whole lot better.

11/12/2009 09:00:18 PM · #8

Originally posted by posthumous:

Well timed post, so soon after yet another lunatic was able to easily obtain firearms in the U.S. and kill a whole bunch of people.

That particular lunatic was breaking the law by having guns on the military base. In 1993, President Clinton declared all US military bases "gun free zones".
How many people do you think the terrorist lunatic would have executed if the men and women in that building had been carrying their loaded sidearms? They had to wait nearly 10 minutes until a pair of local traffic cops arrived with their side arms to end the executions.
ETA,
When I was in London in 1999 to help a team build a human powered air cannon to launch pumpkins, we had to disassemble the finished machine, and transport it to a military base in order to launch pumpkins with it. It would be illegal to fire it there otherwise.

Message edited by author 2009-11-12 21:30:35.

11/12/2009 09:03:48 PM · #9

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Posthumous is a stoner?

Ahhhhh now, I understand his Ribbon Choices and off the wall comments, a whole lot better.

Maybe that's what made me think of drugs. :P

But some of us are just naturally creative. LOL

11/12/2009 09:25:17 PM · #10

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

How many people do you think the terrorist lunatic would have executed if the men and women in that building had been carrying their loaded sidearms?

Hard to say. Under those circumstances, he could have carried a fully automatic rifle or even a grenade without raising suspicion instead of a couple of handguns.

US Military Base/Gun Free Zones

11/12/2009 09:31:29 PM · #11

11/12/2009 10:07:44 PM · #12

You REALLY need to find a better source of information that a FauxNews opinion article. The military base gun control measures cited were a result of DoD Directive 5210.56, implemented in 1992 under George Bushâ�� a year before Clinton became president. The directive was signed by then-Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz (not exactly known for liberal peacenik policies).

Maybe instead of pondering how much "safer" it might have been with fully automatic weapons and soldiers adding crossfire from different directions, you could take a second to consider that Texas allows people like Hasan to purchase handguns without a permit or registration. Perhaps we should extend your brilliant logic worldwide. Instead of trying to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, we should just sell them openly to anyone who wants one. We'll just count on more people returning fire to limit the number of cities vaporized. Brilliant.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

11/12/2009 10:34:03 PM · #13

The Second Amendment has kept American citizens free to have arms for a couple of hundred years. Can you name any other country where the citizens were disarmed by the government and the populace remained free for 200 years?
Nukes is a totally different thing. I can remember diving under my school desk in nuke drills during the Cuban missile crisis. I still think that if the US had not had nukes that now we would not be free to have our DPC.
ETA How many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted?

Message edited by author 2009-11-12 22:38:09.

RayEthier

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

11/12/2009 11:57:36 PM · #14

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted?

Sorry, but I can't agree with this statement.

Armed with this logic, we would ensure that all high school and university student carry arms to class on the off chance that some stressed out student might want to emulate this type of carnage.

As for your scenario where everyone was armed within the military base, I shudder to think of the number of "cross fire" casualties that would occur.

Ray

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

11/13/2009 12:19:37 AM · #15

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

Gun control doesn't have to be disarmament, however anarchy is not necessarily better than totalitarianism either. Countries that arm themselves for mutual defense (Switzerland) tend to fare a little better than those that arm themselves against their own governments (Somalia, Afghanistan), and gun arguments here almost always drift toward the latter "need." That's not a very united United States.

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:

How many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted?

Unfortunately, homicide on military bases is like car accidentsâ�� so common that only the sensational cases make headlines. 14 soldiers from Ft. Carson alone have been charged or convicted with 11 murders since 2005. Remember: the gun restriction on these bases was initiated by the military itself, and that's probably still very wise considering its track record of recognizing internal threats. Ali Mohamed, the military chief of Al Qaeda, served as a U.S. Army sergeant at the Special Warfare Center at Ft. Bragg!

dponlyme

Nikon D3000

11/13/2009 12:33:03 AM · #16

Regardless of who was the source of the decision to disarm our armed forces on military bases it still doesn't make a lot of sense. My thought here is that the Fort Hood massacre is not the result of a loony with mental issues as one might find going on a campus shooting spree but a terrorist who was completely sane and knew what he was doing and to whom he was doing it to. He did this not just to the people he killed and wounded and their families and friends. He did this to the United States of America and all nations that stand on our side in this war. This man did not have a personal ax to grind. He had an idealogical ax to grind.

pawdrix

Nikon D700

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D IF

11/13/2009 12:44:40 AM · #17

Originally posted by dponlyme:

He did this to the United States of America and all nations that stand on our side in this war.

Ya think?

Originally posted by dponlyme:

This man did not have a personal ax to grind. He had an idealogical ax to grind.

...and you know all this...how?

It's probably more complex than simple ideology and simplifying things to one dimension is exactly why we have fucked up this entire conflict to begin with. "Good vs Evil"..."If you're not with us you're against us"

90% of this situation is really about poverty and lack of education, at it's base. After noodling around for a few years it finally dawned on us to pay people off in exchange for not killing us and build schools, hospitals etc. I suppose we'll never get it.

Message edited by author 2009-11-13 00:50:56.

dponlyme

Nikon D3000

Nikon AF-S DX 18-105 f/3.5-5.6 ED VR

11/13/2009 01:46:50 AM · #18

Originally posted by pawdrix:

...and you know all this...how?

He shouted "God is great" before killing and wounding everyone. It is a fact that he was a radical Muslim. He had been in contact with a known radical Imam in Yemen and most probably other radicals. He was investigated for these reasons and due the need for all of this political correctness it was dropped. Did he have a personal meltdown... who knows but the driving force behind what was done was a hatred for the United States and all that we stand for. That seems clear from his stated beliefs and actions. This is what the evidence indicates. I haven't heard one iota of reasonable evidence to indicate mental instability.

HarveyG

Nikon D800

Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 EX APO IF HSM for Nikon

11/13/2009 02:12:25 AM · #19

How did he get into a "Gun Free" zone (thx Clinton) base packing two sidearms?
They are trying to make every public place here in the RSA Gun Free Zones.
I personally am avoiding those establishments that have already voluntarliy meekly rolled over and put their paws in the air.
Criminals are rubbing their hands and AK47's in glee, and soon will be spoilt for choice for a soft target without the threat/risk of Joe Public taking them out with his concealed .45 or 9.

Our papers are full off reports of those GFZ's being robbed now on an almost regular basis by AK toting "affirmative shoppers". Recent research I did showed that a specific mall has been hit 6 times by armed robbers since becoming a GFZ. You do the math.

Message edited by author 2009-11-13 02:15:29.

11/13/2009 04:44:04 AM · #20

Originally posted by scalvert:

Perhaps we should extend your brilliant logic worldwide. Instead of trying to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons, we should just sell them openly to anyone who wants one. We'll just count on more people returning fire to limit the number of cities vaporized. Brilliant.

LOL didn't realize you were hawk scalvert.
I guess you would have gone along with the
Bush plan to invade Iran? ;p

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

Tamron AF 28-80mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical for Nikon

11/13/2009 04:49:56 AM · #21

If you are an ID card holder, you are usually able to get onto a base without a search, but he did take a chance in that they do have random searches. They generally don't open bags and such, but will ask you to show them the contents, also a random thing. So he knew that going in.

The part that gets me is the name of the gun store - he legally purchased the weapon from a place called "Guns Galore". Isn't that quaint?

I bet he was more than just a little upset to wake up and discover he wasn't dead.

vtruan

Nikon D5100

11/13/2009 08:30:00 AM · #22

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted?

Sorry, but I can't agree with this statement.

Armed with this logic, we would ensure that all high school and university student carry arms to class on the off chance that some stressed out student might want to emulate this type of carnage.

As for your scenario where everyone was armed within the military base, I shudder to think of the number of "cross fire" casualties that would occur.

Ray

Funny back in the good old days, we had guns in schools. I carried a shotgun to school several times (not loaded), and we had a gun club in our Jr High School. In high school, we had a girls rifle team, that had "real" rifles and shot at a school range. No school shooting then. Of course we had prayers in schools then and said the pledge too. We were paddled by the principals for bad behavior and then again at home if our parents heard about it. We had a dress code. No drugs. You weren't expelled for a fight, just taken to the gym and boxing gloves were put on and a winner was named and hand shakes after the match. Things seem to have changed alright.

A trained soldier would have used one shot at that range, no cross firing, just a dead Muslim terrorist.

Message edited by author 2009-11-13 08:30:29.

11/13/2009 09:03:33 AM · #23

Originally posted by vtruan:

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by MelonMusketeer:
many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted?

Sorry, but I can't agree with this statement.

Armed with this logic, we would ensure that all high school and university student carry arms to class on the off chance that some stressed out student might want to emulate this type of carnage.

As for your scenario where everyone was armed within the military base, I shudder to think of the number of "cross fire" casualties that would occur.

Ray

Funny back in the good old days, we had guns in schools. I carried a shotgun to school several times (not loaded), and we had a gun club in our Jr High School. In high school, we had a girls rifle team, that had "real" rifles and shot at a school range. No school shooting then. Of course we had prayers in schools then and said the pledge too. We were paddled by the principals for bad behavior and then again at home if our parents heard about it. We had a dress code. No drugs. You weren't expelled for a fight, just taken to the gym and boxing gloves were put on and a winner was named and hand shakes after the match. Things seem to have changed alright.

A trained soldier would have used one shot at that range, no cross firing, just a dead Muslim terrorist.

To correct the misquote, it was " How many of these mass murders by an armed loony happened on military bases before the gun ban was enacted? " I am sure that the rest of you got that.

vtruan, my sentiments exactly. We used to drive our pickups to school with our shotguns in the window racks (which BTW were just hitting the market,) and we didn't need to even lock the doors. I can't remember any incidents where anyone got shot at school back then. Of course we didn't have all the computer games, movies, and TV shows that glorify killing in those days, but that's a whole other rant. Sorry for the ramble.

That original posted link in this thread is certainly about exactly what the OP titled the thread. Here in Florida, you can shoot anyone who is on your property to do you or your family harm, without having to retreat before doing it. If they run, you have to shoot them then drag them back onto your property before the police arrive. It's pretty secure here now because criminals are very careful about how things look when they are contemplating armed robbery. A few spent cartridges lying around the driveway make a pretty good deterrent.