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10/29/2009 06:44:10 PM · #951 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. Fine, you can hold that position, but I can disagree about it and push back when confronted by it. |
On what level do you feel you have the right to advocate for politics and law to be dictated by your faith?
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10/29/2009 06:45:42 PM · #952 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. |
Of course you can advocate your position, but you can't force others to accept a "reality" that is ultimately what you THINK is reality. In other words, you can say "I think abortion is wrong" (perfectly fine), but nobody can mandate that abortions be banned because the Bible says so, because by law the "reality" of the Bible cannot be forced on others. Where the government and laws are concerned, you'd have to support your opinion with something other than a belief in one particular religion. |
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10/29/2009 06:47:28 PM · #953 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I wasn't aware the constitution gives the church the power to enact any laws whether on religious grounds or not... |
It doesn't, and that's entirely the point. Prior to the constitution this was common practice. Kings and popes would simply decree whatever rule they happened to believeâ in complete disregard for others who may not share that belief.
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 18:50:03. |
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10/29/2009 06:51:20 PM · #954 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. Fine, you can hold that position, but I can disagree about it and push back when confronted by it. |
On what level do you feel you have the right to advocate for politics and law to be dictated by your faith? |
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
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10/29/2009 06:51:51 PM · #955 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. |
Of course you can advocate your position, but you can't force others to accept a "reality" that is ultimately what you THINK is reality. In other words, you can say "I think abortion is wrong" (perfectly fine), but nobody can mandate that abortions be banned because the Bible says so, because by law the "reality" of the Bible cannot be forced on others. Where the government and laws are concerned, you'd have to support your opinion with something other than a belief in one particular religion. |
Disagree. Abortion was not struck down because of separation, but rather because of privacy issues. Abortion laws have never been struck down, to my knowledge, for separation reasons.
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 18:52:57. |
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10/29/2009 06:52:46 PM · #956 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How is this any different from Sharia Law? |
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10/29/2009 06:53:43 PM · #957 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How is this any different from Sharia Law? |
Because I am not the judge. I am one voice among many. Democracy rules. |
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10/29/2009 06:59:54 PM · #958 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. Fine, you can hold that position, but I can disagree about it and push back when confronted by it. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
On what level do you feel you have the right to advocate for politics and law to be dictated by your faith? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How then do you feel that you can be fair when dealing with someone who doesn't sahre your faith?
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10/29/2009 07:08:06 PM · #959 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Abortion was not struck down because of separation, but rather because of privacy issues. |
Exactly: laws do not rest on religious grounds. If they did, then whether or not the unborn qualified as a citizen would be moot against the issue of religious morality. |
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10/29/2009 07:11:50 PM · #960 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. Fine, you can hold that position, but I can disagree about it and push back when confronted by it. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
On what level do you feel you have the right to advocate for politics and law to be dictated by your faith? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How then do you feel that you can be fair when dealing with someone who doesn't sahre your faith? |
Jeb, what do you mean by fair? Couldn't you insert almost any world view, heritage, background, culture, etc. in place of "your faith?" |
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10/29/2009 07:14:26 PM · #961 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So let's just all go back to my original paragraph and assume that my feelings are based on reality. You all clearly do not feel I have a right to advocate my own position when it comes to politics and law. Fine, you can hold that position, but I can disagree about it and push back when confronted by it. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
On what level do you feel you have the right to advocate for politics and law to be dictated by your faith? |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
How then do you feel that you can be fair when dealing with someone who doesn't sahre your faith? |
Originally posted by mpeters:
Jeb, what do you mean by fair? Couldn't you insert almost any world view, heritage, background, culture, etc. in place of "your faith?" |
Well, up to a point yes, but the problem with most faith structures is that they believe that in order to live "right" you *must* adopt their ways.
That......isn't fair.
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10/29/2009 07:15:17 PM · #962 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How is this any different from Sharia Law? |
Because I am not the judge. I am one voice among many. Democracy rules. |
That's not a distinction. People who choose to live under Sharia Law often choose to do so by popular vote, too. It's the Muslim analog to "everyone living according to Christian ideals."
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 19:15:31. |
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10/29/2009 07:21:17 PM · #963 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
How is this any different from Sharia Law? |
Because I am not the judge. I am one voice among many. Democracy rules. |
That's not a distinction. People who choose to live under Sharia Law often choose to do so by popular vote, too. It's the Muslim analog to "everyone living according to Christian ideals." |
You are distorting what I am advocating. I, in no way, want a Christian version of Sharia. I do, however, want a place at the noisy table of democracy. Nothing more. Nothing less. |
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10/29/2009 07:24:39 PM · #964 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
So you're a slave to your faith? I'm sure you find it a very rich experience but it certainly limits you in areas like this, IMHMO. Personally, I don't like guns, but I don't think society should bend over backwards and ban them simply because I don't like them. There needs to be a more compelling reason then that. I get the sense that you disagree? You say it's just democracy in action. I guess you're right and I should just go out and make enough mini-yankos to turn the tide, eh? |
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10/29/2009 07:29:28 PM · #965 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
People who choose to live under Sharia Law often choose to do so by popular vote, too. It's the Muslim analog to "everyone living according to Christian ideals." |
You are distorting what I am advocating. I, in no way, want a Christian version of Sharia. I do, however, want a place at the noisy table of democracy. Nothing more. Nothing less. |
You have that now. Like it or not, enacting and living under laws according to your faith WOULD be a Christian version of Sharia Law. |
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10/29/2009 07:30:27 PM · #966 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
You are distorting what I am advocating. I, in no way, want a Christian version of Sharia. I do, however, want a place at the noisy table of democracy. Nothing more. Nothing less. |
Here in Ireland god is firmly embedded in the constitution. To the degree that every day at the opening of dail (parliament) the ministers say a prayer.
What Eamon de Valera told the Dail during the debate on the 1937 Irish Constitution:
âI want everybody to realise what this Constitution states about authority. In the Preamble, and in the Article that refers to that, there is a clear, unequivocal statement that authority comes from God. That is fundamental. It does not matter what view a group of Catholic theologians may take as to how it comes to the immediate rulers. What we have here is clear at any rate - that authority is from God. That is fundamental Catholic doctrine, and it is here. It is true doctrine.â
Perhaps you should move? :) |
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10/29/2009 07:41:42 PM · #967 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
You have that now. |
I know I have it now. I just don't like people telling me I don't as they look down the bridge of their nose... |
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10/29/2009 07:47:43 PM · #968 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
So you're a slave to your faith? I'm sure you find it a very rich experience but it certainly limits you in areas like this, IMHMO. Personally, I don't like guns, but I don't think society should bend over backwards and ban them simply because I don't like them. There needs to be a more compelling reason then that. I get the sense that you disagree? You say it's just democracy in action. I guess you're right and I should just go out and make enough mini-yankos to turn the tide, eh? |
That just strikes me as apathy and apathy never accomplished anything.
If being a slave to Christ was good enough for Paul, it's probably good enough for me... ;) |
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10/29/2009 07:57:18 PM · #969 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
So you're a slave to your faith? I'm sure you find it a very rich experience but it certainly limits you in areas like this, IMHMO. Personally, I don't like guns, but I don't think society should bend over backwards and ban them simply because I don't like them. There needs to be a more compelling reason then that. I get the sense that you disagree? You say it's just democracy in action. I guess you're right and I should just go out and make enough mini-yankos to turn the tide, eh? |
That just strikes me as apathy and apathy never accomplished anything. |
I don't follow. Are you saying you must have a religious basis in order to be passionate about a cause? |
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10/29/2009 08:06:23 PM · #970 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
So you're a slave to your faith? I'm sure you find it a very rich experience but it certainly limits you in areas like this, IMHMO. Personally, I don't like guns, but I don't think society should bend over backwards and ban them simply because I don't like them. There needs to be a more compelling reason then that. I get the sense that you disagree? You say it's just democracy in action. I guess you're right and I should just go out and make enough mini-yankos to turn the tide, eh? |
That just strikes me as apathy and apathy never accomplished anything.
If being a slave to Christ was good enough for Paul, it's probably good enough for me... ;) |
Well said Doc, faith in humanity means having faith in leaders as well. Ahh...but most people today would rather be enslaved by their egos.
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 20:17:35. |
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10/29/2009 08:16:47 PM · #971 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, as I said, since my life operates through the lens of my faith, any advocating I do would be dictated by it. |
So you're a slave to your faith? I'm sure you find it a very rich experience but it certainly limits you in areas like this, IMHMO. Personally, I don't like guns, but I don't think society should bend over backwards and ban them simply because I don't like them. There needs to be a more compelling reason then that. I get the sense that you disagree? You say it's just democracy in action. I guess you're right and I should just go out and make enough mini-yankos to turn the tide, eh? |
That just strikes me as apathy and apathy never accomplished anything. |
I don't follow. Are you saying you must have a religious basis in order to be passionate about a cause? |
No, I'm just saying maybe you should be a little more passionate about your feelings. If you don't like guns, why not make your view known unless you really don't care about it? |
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10/29/2009 08:36:24 PM · #972 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
No, I'm just saying ... |
I notice you seem to have nothing to say in response to my question ...
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 20:36:59. |
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10/29/2009 08:49:39 PM · #973 |
| Perception equals Reality. |
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10/29/2009 08:50:04 PM · #974 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by scalvert:
You have that now. |
I know I have it now. I just don't like people telling me I don't as they look down the bridge of their nose... |
Nobody has said that you don't, either. |
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10/29/2009 08:58:02 PM · #975 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If being a slave to Christ was good enough for Paul, it's probably good enough for me... ;) |
If a book says that Odysseus was a slave to Athena, is that also good enough for you? It's either an identical justification for devotion or equally meaningless.
Message edited by author 2009-10-29 21:02:46. |
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