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09/30/2009 12:28:25 PM · #501 |
Originally posted by raish:
I could use a ride on that sliding scale of pornography. Heh. It would take a miracle... |
Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd chime in on this one?
Slut!...........8>)
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09/30/2009 01:15:37 PM · #502 |
| I'm hoping I don't need to point out to you cretins that I was quoting Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when I said, "I'll know it when I see it"... :P |
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09/30/2009 02:01:50 PM · #503 |
silly jason. it doesn't matter where good porn comes from. its still good porn.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm hoping I don't need to point out to you cretins that I was quoting Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when I said, "I'll know it when I see it"... :P |
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09/30/2009 02:18:11 PM · #504 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm hoping I don't need to point out to you cretins that I was quoting Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when I said, "I'll know it when I see it"... :P |
Not to me, you don't. But on the other hand, I'm no cretin. In fact, there are no bears on Crete and never have been either.
R. |
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09/30/2009 02:19:54 PM · #505 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm hoping I don't need to point out to you cretins that I was quoting Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when I said, "I'll know it when I see it"... :P |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Not to me, you don't. But on the other hand, I'm no cretin. In fact, there are no bears on Crete and never have been either.
R. |
I think I just hurt something laughing......8>)
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09/30/2009 02:21:15 PM · #506 |
| Well, I used the term obviously to exclude you Robert... :) |
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09/30/2009 04:11:11 PM · #507 |
| And sadly, either due to failing eyesight or an oddly placed mosquito, I read that as "Well, I used the term obviously to extrude you Robert" and thought that's gotta hurt.... |
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09/30/2009 04:54:44 PM · #508 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
[Not to change the topic (hey, that NEVER happens on these threads), but an example of a phenomenon that could be interpreted differently depending on your worldview is the Third man phenomenon where people sense a benevolent force guiding them in times of extreme stress. The scientists are looking for a neurological explanation for such a phenomenon, but have not come up with it yet (there has been some progress, but no difinitive work), and the dualist is more willing to chalk it up to a "guardian angel" for lack of a better term. Who's right? Who's wrong? We don't know. (And before I get hit with it, I'm quite happy that people are investigating the phenomenon to their hearts content. I don't think we need to just stop looking and chalk it up to another reality.) |
Here is one of the reports noting the scientific research
//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197394/The-Third-Man-Factor-How-dire-peril-felt-sudden-presence-inspiring-survive.html |
Good article. I originally heard this on NPR which was promoting the same book. Anyway, the NPR version gets a little into the research and notes that the "presence" they have been able to invoke at times in experiment is notedly different than that reported by anecdotal stories.
Here's the NPR take. Sounds like an interesting book, eh? Third Man Factor - NPR |
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09/30/2009 05:49:44 PM · #509 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm hoping I don't need to point out to you cretins that I was quoting Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when I said, "I'll know it when I see it"... :P |
Not to me, you don't. But on the other hand, I'm no cretin. In fact, there are no bears on Crete and never have been either.
R. |
The absence of ursines from that Mediterranean isle is of little consequence to Cretans.
However I think Jason had better toss the former term around wearing asbestos gloves, considering its etymology:
cretinânoun
1. a person suffering from cretinism.
2. a stupid, obtuse, or mentally defective person.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1770â80; < F; Franco-Provençal creitin, crestin human being, lit., Christian (hence one who is human despite deformities) |
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09/30/2009 06:32:40 PM · #510 |
Heh. I love word etymology. I have to say I had a bit of trouble following that one (I looked it up other places too and still didn't quite get it).
Of course I didn't really mean to insult anybody, but it went total Beavis and Butthead for a few posts. I could almost hear it..."huh huh huh huh...he said...porn" :) |
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09/30/2009 07:41:39 PM · #511 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Heh. I love word etymology. |
Check out "silly" (the Middle English) ... ;-) |
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10/01/2009 03:15:10 AM · #512 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Heh. I love word etymology. |
Check out "silly" (the Middle English) ... ;-) |
Or word tautology.
seely |
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10/12/2009 08:59:28 PM · #513 |
"In one experiment, we placed two capuchin monkeys side by side: separate, but in full view. One of them needed to barter with us with small plastic tokens. The critical test came when we offered a choice between two differently colored tokens with different meaning: one token was "selfish," the other "prosocial." If the bartering monkey picked the selfish token, it received a small piece of apple for returning it, but its partner got nothing. The prosocial token, on the other hand, rewarded both monkeys equally at the same time. The monkeys gradually began to prefer the prosocial token. The procedures were repeated many times with different pairs of monkeys and different sets of tokens, and the monkeys kept picking the prosocial option showing how much they care about each other's welfare."
Lo! Morals without God, unless you're proposing a heretofore unidentified simian deity worshiped by capuchins.
Take that, those of you who claim that without God we would be absent a moral compass! Reproducible evidence to the contrary. Ain't science grand?
Message edited by author 2009-10-12 20:59:52. |
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10/12/2009 09:57:05 PM · #514 |
You should read the actual article. It's pretty easy to poke holes in things like this. I gotta scratch my head when a study can get away with something like this:
"Subjects showing an extreme side-bias during a given test (i.e., choosing either right or left >85% of the trials regardless of token), were tested a second time on a different day. The latter data were included in statistical analyses regardless of whether or not the individual persisted in her side-bias. Extremely side-biased performances were excluded from the graphs in this paper, however."
Translation: If the money was amoral, we gave him a second chance. If he was still amoral, we counted it...except in the graphs. We wanted those to look good.
Maybe those were the atheist monkeys... ;)
Another BIG issue, in my mind, was a preconceived bias which is revealed in the following paragraph:
"The first such study yielded ambiguous results for macaques (Macaca spp.). Replications with chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes)initially failed to bring resolution, leading to claims that our close relatives must be indifferent to each otherâs welfare. This negative outcome was puzzling, however, given the high rates of altruistic behavior and cooperation in the chimpanzeeâs natural social life."
So these experiments are looking to objectively document altruism. They did it in chimps and didn't find any sign of it. BUT we already know they are altruistic (through observation). So what's up? Is the experiment poorly designed or is the apparent altruism really an illusion? If we had a priori decided chimps were altruistic, then why do the experiment? And if the experiment is valid, why brush off the findings when they are negative?
Message edited by author 2009-10-12 22:02:44. |
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10/18/2009 05:38:47 PM · #515 |
Lo! Morals without God, unless you're proposing a heretofore unidentified simian deity worshiped by capuchins.
Take that, those of you who claim that without God we would be absent a moral compass! Reproducible evidence to the contrary. Ain't science grand? [/quote]
Here is a quote from the above articele:
"Perhaps it is just me, but I'd be wary of anyone whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for a livable society, is built into us? Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked rules of right and wrong before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal?"
I would like to point out that if right and wrong are built into us then something or someone would have had to build them into us. My view is that God, being the creator, did build this into us whether or not you or anyone else believes in him. The presence or absence of "religion" is not a factor. Those who do evil do indeed know they are doing evil and most often either revel in it or rationalize it. When I do things that are against God's will I engage in this behavior of rationalization but ultimately it seperates me from God. I am convicted of my rebellion and am forced to confront it and ask for forgiveness. Also rules of right and wrong are not the same thing as morality. Morality is inside of you and rules are just that... rules. Often so that society can function in an orderly manner. Morality and moral choices often do not effect societies orderly functioning. It is morality that seeks to benefit others even when it may cost the one providing the help. There are no rules of right and wrong in our society that require this. If you indeed listen to that voice inside of you that makes you do these things then this, in my opinion, is due to the conscience that God has built into you. Even if one denies God... remember he causes his rain to fall on both the righteous and the wicked. The tares grow right along with the wheat... until harvest time.
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10/18/2009 05:58:26 PM · #516 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I would like to point out that if right and wrong are built into us then something or someone would have had to build them into us. My view is that God, being the creator, did build this into us whether or not you or anyone else believes in him. |
Thing is......all of the rhetoric below is solely dependednt on the premise above.
If you're wrong, that premise which cannot be proven, which has been established in many threads here, holds no water.
Originally posted by dponlyme:
The presence or absence of "religion" is not a factor. Those who do evil do indeed know they are doing evil and most often either revel in it or rationalize it. When I do things that are against God's will I engage in this behavior of rationalization but ultimately it seperates me from God. I am convicted of my rebellion and am forced to confront it and ask for forgiveness. Also rules of right and wrong are not the same thing as morality. Morality is inside of you and rules are just that... rules. Often so that society can function in an orderly manner. Morality and moral choices often do not effect societies orderly functioning. It is morality that seeks to benefit others even when it may cost the one providing the help. There are no rules of right and wrong in our society that require this. If you indeed listen to that voice inside of you that makes you do these things then this, in my opinion, is due to the conscience that God has built into you. Even if one denies God... remember he causes his rain to fall on both the righteous and the wicked. The tares grow right along with the wheat... until harvest time. |
Therefore it is not reasonable, thoughtful, or kind to ask others to share aforementioned view.
You have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong in order to share this journey of life with others who feel just as strongly of their faith. |
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10/18/2009 06:47:05 PM · #517 |
Where would you end up dponlyme if it were proven that no gods exist? Would you kill us non believers knowing that your god was a hoax? Remember, no burning in hell for all eternity if gods do not exist so you can do anything you want including killing me and not suffering in hell after you die. Where would you end up?
Message edited by author 2009-10-18 18:48:01. |
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10/18/2009 06:51:36 PM · #518 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Those who do evil do indeed know they are doing evil and most often either revel in it or rationalize it. When I do things that are against God's will I engage in this behavior of rationalization but ultimately it seperates me from God. I am convicted of my rebellion and am forced to confront it and ask for forgiveness. Also rules of right and wrong are not the same thing as morality. |
This kind of talk is quite terrifying. Are "against god's will" and "evil" the same thing? Incidentally, do you do evil things regularly?
Given that evil is so easy to identify (using our god given conscience) why do we bother with a legal system? Surely we should just punish people who do evil things?
Originally posted by dponlyme:
It is morality that seeks to benefit others even when it may cost the one providing the help. There are no rules of right and wrong in our society that require this. If you indeed listen to that voice inside of you that makes you do these things then this, in my opinion, is due to the conscience that God has built into you. |
So "generosity" is not a personality trait - it is god telling me what to do. How depressing. |
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10/18/2009 11:20:44 PM · #519 |
I am just blown away that any rational person could conceive that there is no God.
If you believe in science, you must believe and an order of the universe and thus a God. It's pretty simple. |
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10/18/2009 11:37:38 PM · #520 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
I am just blown away that any rational person could conceive that there is no God.
If you believe in science, you must believe and an order of the universe and thus a God. It's pretty simple. |
Nope. Actually if you believe in science, it's really easy to NOT believe in god all the more. There is no order in the universe. It's random probability. The fact that some of it is explainable simply means that the universe works according to natural laws, in place due to the properties if the pieces it's all made of.
But order? Not a chance. Order implies all sorts of things that aren't there, leading us once more to the idea of "god," which pretty much exists to make mankind feel better about being insignificant in the universal scheme. We really are an arrogant bunch of ants running around down here :-)
It might surprise you to know that I'm blown away that any rational person can conceive that there is a god.
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10/19/2009 01:04:42 AM · #521 |
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:
But order? Not a chance. |
C'mon. Leaving the whole other argument aside, this statement is pretty silly. Remind me to talk to you about DNA sometime... |
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10/19/2009 01:13:26 AM · #522 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I would like to point out that if right and wrong are built into us then something or someone would have had to build them into us. My view is that God, being the creator, did build this into us whether or not you or anyone else believes in him. |
Thing is......all of the rhetoric below is solely dependednt on the premise above.
If you're wrong, that premise which cannot be proven, which has been established in many threads here, holds no water.
Originally posted by dponlyme:
The presence or absence of "religion" is not a factor. Those who do evil do indeed know they are doing evil and most often either revel in it or rationalize it. When I do things that are against God's will I engage in this behavior of rationalization but ultimately it seperates me from God. I am convicted of my rebellion and am forced to confront it and ask for forgiveness. Also rules of right and wrong are not the same thing as morality. Morality is inside of you and rules are just that... rules. Often so that society can function in an orderly manner. Morality and moral choices often do not effect societies orderly functioning. It is morality that seeks to benefit others even when it may cost the one providing the help. There are no rules of right and wrong in our society that require this. If you indeed listen to that voice inside of you that makes you do these things then this, in my opinion, is due to the conscience that God has built into you. Even if one denies God... remember he causes his rain to fall on both the righteous and the wicked. The tares grow right along with the wheat... until harvest time. |
Therefore it is not reasonable, thoughtful, or kind to ask others to share aforementioned view.
You have to accept the possibility that you might be wrong in order to share this journey of life with others who feel just as strongly of their faith. |
With all due respect I do not agree with you that I must accept the possibility that I am wrong in order to share this journey of life with those of different faiths. I do it everyday. Nor do I ask others to share my views but even if I did I would not think it unkind. At the most one should simply see me as misguided but well intentioned. I don't ask that others share my views or my beliefs or that they obtain the 'knowledge' of God that I have. I am merely pointing out that morality does not equate to laws or rules. There are many laws that protect immorality as a choice. I am merely pointing out that if the capacity for morality is built into us that someone must have 'built' us. These are my thoughts. Take them or leave them. |
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10/19/2009 02:02:08 AM · #523 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Those who do evil do indeed know they are doing evil and most often either revel in it or rationalize it. When I do things that are against God's will I engage in this behavior of rationalization but ultimately it seperates me from God. I am convicted of my rebellion and am forced to confront it and ask for forgiveness. Also rules of right and wrong are not the same thing as morality. |
This kind of talk is quite terrifying. Are "against god's will" and "evil" the same thing? Incidentally, do you do evil things regularly?
Given that evil is so easy to identify (using our god given conscience) why do we bother with a legal system? Surely we should just punish people who do evil things?
Originally posted by dponlyme:
It is morality that seeks to benefit others even when it may cost the one providing the help. There are no rules of right and wrong in our society that require this. If you indeed listen to that voice inside of you that makes you do these things then this, in my opinion, is due to the conscience that God has built into you. |
So "generosity" is not a personality trait - it is god telling me what to do. How depressing. |
Please don't get bogged down in the word evil. We are not talking about a horror movie. To do something evil in the context with which I wrote could be relatively innocuous such as spreading gossip. Nobody would want to put you in jail for it or be shocked at your behavior. It is evil and against God's will for you to do nonetheless... and yes I do evil things everyday in thought and deed. You already know that what I believe is that we all do. You may think yourself to be just a great and wonderful guy around the clock, I don't know, but If you do then you are truly deluding yourself as I have never met anyone yet other than Jesus who was able to do this. I think the difference here is that I recognize my evil due to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and others may not. They rationalize that what they are doing is okay. They quash their conscience and do not have the Holy Spirit to convict them. If it is not rationalization then they are fully aware that what they are doing or thinking is wrong and actively are choosing to do wrong.
Legal systems, as I have stated, are necessary to the orderly functioning of society. Even evil laws help in this respect. Laws that allow evil, such as abortion, lead to a good outcome for society in some respects (e.g. women won't die in back alley abortions) God will be the ultimate judge of the inward man and his thoughts and deeds and the choice to abort a baby will not go unpunished I believe. Thus laws are not equivalent to morality and yet they are necessary to prevent a society from dissolving into chaos. If people were truly moral then the law of God would be written on their hearts and the law of man would not be necessary but people rationalize their behavior or choose to do evil and are incapable of the perfection necessary to do away with the laws of man.
Generosity is indeed a personality trait... in my opinion this is given to you by God and through no effort of your own did you acquire it. |
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10/19/2009 04:11:09 AM · #524 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Please don't get bogged down in the word evil. We are not talking about a horror movie. |
Sure - I was wondering if you were getting bogged down in the word. You seem to see a binary world of "good" and "evil", whereas we demonstrably live in an analogue world.
Your gut feeling (or your god given moral compass, as you conceive it) is the simplistic and animalistic response mechanism that for millennia kept savannah dwelling hunter gatherers safe. It is powerful because it controls some of the strongest electro chemical responses in the body like adrenaline (hence being a mental process that is felt in the gut). It is also demonstrably easy to fool and manipulate.
For example, if we are made aware of a particular threat regularly, our gut tells us that this threat is very likely and we become afraid of it. We also think something is riskier if it is notable than if it is prosaic. In the world of the hunter gatherer, these processing mechanism would have worked well to protect us from harm. But the modern media spends a hugely disproportionate time focussed on unusual threats â so we become very afraid of child abduction (risk: less than 1 in a million) but ignore the far higher risk caused by, say, speeding.
Your gut feeling is a miracle of nothing more than evolutionary pressure.
In your world, I guess this translates into labelling child abductors âevilâ while speeding culture is not even on the moral radar.
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Generosity is indeed a personality trait... in my opinion this is given to you by God and through no effort of your own did you acquire it. |
Still very depressing. Out of interest, how do you reconcile this with the concept of free will?
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10/19/2009 08:40:06 AM · #525 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
... I have never met anyone yet other than Jesus who was able to do this. |
You met Jesus... now that is indeed impressive.
Ray |
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