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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Involuntary manslaughter?
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 10/09/2009 01:34:41 PM · #26
In jail or not the father will suffer the rest of his life. I can't say I agree with 24 years but if the accused party in this situation was a babysitter or caretaker(not the father), it would be hard to have much sympathy with him/her.

LoudDog-- 10 miles is a hike! I realize a kid in decent physical condition can walk 10 miles no problem but throw in the cold weather/wind/snow/whatever and you have the recipe for disaster. Your experience with the Boy Scouts and the Paria Canyon kids is hardly the same situation. I took my 4 year old son, and four of his cousins on a backpakcing trip this summer(4 miles at moderate elevation) and it tired them out. Even my 9 year old nephew. And we had 4 adults to assist as needed. These were all active kids too. I know you aren't really sticking up for the father and don't think 24 years is right, but...
 10/09/2009 02:18:42 PM · #27
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Just a few questions....

How many parents would send their kids on a 10 mile journey under ANY weather conditions...???


Lets see, last week at Devil's lake in Wisconsin they had a Boy Scout Jamboree and there were about 1500 kids doing just that. When I climbed Mt St Helens a couple months ago I was surprised how many kids were doing it (well ahead of their adults too!). When I hiked Paria Canyon in June (40 miles-4 days) We came across a few kids (even carrying their own pack, and miles from their adults, the horror!). When I go out hiking (almost every weekend) I always see kids out there. Often times the kids are without adults. A kid on a 10 mile journey is not unusual! Not everyone keeps their kids in a bubble.

However, I read some more about the case and I'm thinking it was a bone head decision. There was a second adult in the car at the time. There were far better options. Worthy of 24 years in jail? I don't want to make that decision, but that's more time then your average child rapist serves...


Your sarcasm regarding the fact that they were out in what was obviously freezing temperatures, unsupervised & clearly not remotely in a scenario compared to anything you have experienced is perplexing to me...
I get it, you've been in some cold weather, with out your parents for an extended period of time, playing with friends.. But, SHE DIED... doesn't your common sense kick in at some point and tell you that something went horribly wrong... There's nothing to compare here to your childhood..... it has nothing to do with anything you've done or your parents let you do...
You don't have kids, so maybe you can't understand this... I would NEVER allow my children to go unsupervised for a 10 mile walk even if they were trained for a triathalon... Not children at that age.. Teenagers are different... Even if you took the weather out of the equation, what about rapists and kidnappers... WTF... I say he's damn lucky.. He will probably some day get out but neverless, he gets 3 hots & cot every single day for the rest of his life... Which is a hell of a lot more then he let her have..
 10/09/2009 05:58:20 PM · #28
Acquitted.
 10/09/2009 06:05:17 PM · #29
GOOD !!
 10/09/2009 06:10:22 PM · #30
He at least needs his parental rights revoked. He's shown he's incapable of making very easy descisions concerning safety.
 10/09/2009 06:42:07 PM · #31
wow.... sad.. I wonder if any jurors will be granting interviews... I will be tuning in with Nancy Grace tonight to see if she has any of them on her show.. I'll be very interested in hearing their reasons...
 10/09/2009 07:14:20 PM · #32
I wonder, where do you find juries with any intelligence that would acquit this âmanâsâ actions, and did they speak English?
I also wonder where you get a prosecutor that canât Google a topographical map that shows that 9 miles, and the obstacles presented to these children at that time, place, and conditions.
I lived there, I would not allow my children 40 feet in a similar situation.
 10/09/2009 07:17:41 PM · #33
I would have to assume that there were facts that weren't presented in the newspaper article that prevented him from being charged with involuntary manslaughter.

It doesn't say, but I wonder if he will be charged with something else?
 10/09/2009 07:32:41 PM · #34
Originally posted by karmat:
I would have to assume that there were facts that weren't presented in the newspaper article that prevented him from being charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Sadly Karma they must think only that he is insane. Have you ever heard of Craters of the Moon NP, same lava field just to the south-east..
 10/09/2009 07:37:37 PM · #35
Originally posted by alans_world:
Originally posted by karmat:
I would have to assume that there were facts that weren't presented in the newspaper article that prevented him from being charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Sadly Karma they must think only that he is insane. Have you ever heard of Craters of the Moon NP, same lava field just to the south-east..


I was thinking more along the lines of the jurisdiction's definition of involuntary manslaughter or something. You know, like for murder in the first degree you have to meet certain criteria. It may seem like murder 1, but the jury has explicit directions on the definitions of the law, etc. and how to apply them.
 10/09/2009 07:40:26 PM · #36
Hopfully.
 10/09/2009 07:41:30 PM · #37
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by alans_world:
Originally posted by karmat:
I would have to assume that there were facts that weren't presented in the newspaper article that prevented him from being charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Sadly Karma they must think only that he is insane. Have you ever heard of Craters of the Moon NP, same lava field just to the south-east..


I was thinking more along the lines of the jurisdiction's definition of involuntary manslaughter or something. You know, like for murder in the first degree you have to meet certain criteria. It may seem like murder 1, but the jury has explicit directions on the definitions of the law, etc. and how to apply them.


I was wondering the same thing.. Sometimes the language within the law creates these wacky loopholes that allow for people to be aquitted.. Usually though it means the prosecutor didn't do his/her job... I'm wondering if the jury felt he "suffered enough" and just decided to let him go on that basis alone... It happens... (geez, I watch wayyyyyyyyy to much courttv).. but dang I love it soooo
 10/09/2009 07:52:23 PM · #38
Originally posted by karmat:
I would have to assume that there were facts that weren't presented in the newspaper article that prevented him from being charged with involuntary manslaughter.



I get the same feeing.. Sometimes in life things that seem so obvious in hindsight just aren't at that moment in time.. Maybe he underestimated the weather, the distance(sometimes you forget how great distances are when you travel by car, 5 minutes in a car to some place could turn into 45 minutes by foot) the kids' enthusiasm could have bypassed his judgement.. Enough stories have come out about parent who forget their toddlers in their cars and the kids end up dead... That just sounds so dumb.. but people do that.. that doesn't make them crazy or a bad parent.. it's an honest moment of bad judgement..

There are horrible parents on his planet who kill and maim their own children... they're the ones who need to be punished.. In comparison this guy probably had a history of being a good and caring parent..
10/09/2009 07:53:04 PM · #39
My family lives in Twin Falls just to the south west. My wife's family in Shoshone to the Northeast. I will fill in blanks as I hear them..
 10/09/2009 10:35:47 PM · #40
But if it's true that he didn't bother checking on them after the car was out and working, then it's not an honest mistake. If I did something so stupid as to have them start off without me, I darn well would have checked on them as soon as possible. You don't just go home and assume that they made it the 10 miles. That's extreme negligence, imo.
 10/10/2009 12:45:13 AM · #41
Well, I'm pretty sure the jury knows a lot more details about this then we do. I'd love to hear the reasoning.
10/10/2009 01:28:11 AM · #42
little more info: //www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j6VDKkwiyYMDb5X09CdLMLYPJnWQD9B7SAE80
 10/10/2009 08:17:17 AM · #43
"Aragon spent between two to three hours digging his car out of the snow after it got stuck, while the children sat in the back seat."

"Aragon was likely suffering from hypothermia, which causes confusion and poor judgment."

hmmm.... I see now what probably caused the aquittal. I don't know much about hypothermia but I'm sure they had an expert explain it's effects and the fact that he had been in the cold so long digging the car out and most likley suffering from some level of hypothermia is what got him the aquittal.

Message edited by author 2009-10-10 08:18:44.
 10/10/2009 09:14:49 AM · #44
Originally posted by kandykarml:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
You know, there's probably a lot we don't know here. All we have is one newspaper's interpretation of the prosecution's side of the story. There's a lot of information we don't have which could either aggravate or explain the situation. As just one example, disorientation and loss of judgment are normal symptoms of hypothermia and fatigue. What if, in the process of trying to free the car, the father had become sufficiently impaired by either that his ability to exercise sound judgment and/or his estimate of the distance of how far they could walk had been seriously impaired? While that wouldn't make this any less of a tragedy, it would explain how such a situation could happen without criminal negligence. Likewise, it's possible there are facts that we don't know that could suggest criminal intent, or at least criminal negligence.

The fact is we don't know. Trying to speculate doesn't make this any less of a tragedy. Ultimately, it's up to the 12 men and women in the jury box to determine the most just course of action. I don't envy them, but I do trust them to do their jobs to the best of their ability.

~Terry


Well, the defense rested today and claimed NONE of the above.. So, I guess it's safe to say that he was well aware of what he was doing, even offering this sound advice:

"The brother of a girl who died of hypothermia said Thursday that their father warned them to stay together, be careful and avoid nearby farm fields before the children set out to trek several miles to their mother's house last Christmas Day."

Here's the article... So sad and I still can't wrap my brain around the reason he would let them walk..
article


Looks like they must have made this claim after all. This is precisely why I think it's dangerous to rush to judgment based on the limited information we get in a newspaper story.

~Terry
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