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09/30/2009 06:55:35 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Really. I could name few photographers on this site, I, at least I, do not feel qualify to comment and criticize their work. They would qualify in expert territory.
As example :  kiwiness  ursula
there are many more. |
I'm sure both take criticism very well, because they value others' input. There's a checkbox that says "I found this comment helpful" for a reason; I never mark simple "I like it" or "I don't like it" or otherwise vague comments as helpful because they don't help me in any way, they just say "xxxxxx agrees with me" or "xxxxxx doesn't agree with me." |
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09/30/2009 07:02:33 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by george917:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Really. I could name few photographers on this site, I, at least I, do not feel qualify to comment and criticize their work. They would qualify in expert territory.
As example : kiwiness ursula
there are many more. |
I'm sure both take criticism very well, because they value others' input. |
you are right that they both value other input. A simple input like - i like it. it is wonderful etc is always welcome.
But i doubt, if they created something with lots of effort and work, and if i just barge in with my changes to it, then they will sure not like it.
I do comment on their photos, but i know i do not have enough knowledge to question their work. And suggest changing it the way i am asking. |
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09/30/2009 07:21:56 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
"The shadow on his right ***, just above the *** just draws my eye for some reason. Other than that one little flaw, a perfect *** of composition."
"Flaw"?
Considering my lighting was placed to the right to achieve exactly that type of shadow it's almost an insult to hear it referred to as a flaw. On another note the shadow is actually pretty light and so incredibly insignificant, I can't for the life of me see how anyone in their right mind would even notice it.
I'm too often not sure where the problems truly lie...with the image or with the viewer?
But Jeb to see how you could improve something (?), I'd ask for what and for who are you improving anything? Be careful who you listen to.
What I generally find most odd is when you get comments people occasionally are trying to guide you, when quite often, they might be the ones that need the guidance.
I've written people during Challenges but I usually check to see what level they seem to be on and what direction they might be judging my image with. If they are applying their aesthetic values in my direction when I intentionally did something different, for a specific reason I may want to stop them dead in their tracks.
I would almost never change a single choice I've made, unless there was something serious that I missed which didn't show up on my monitor.
I'm all for putting people minds right. Too many folks bring an incredible amount of baggage to their viewing and much of it has no place in the mix. Perhaps their infraction should be addressed as soon as it occurs. |
You may well have intended your shadow just that way. What the viewer is trying to say is, that they don't think your intended shadow works in the image. One person's "feature" is another person's "flaw". Ask most any Windows user.
If you have a lot of people misunderstanding your images, perhaps the problem isn't with the viewer after all... If you are shooting to please you, which I encourage, then do not be surprised if others do not share your views and joy. But it does not make them "wrong".
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09/30/2009 07:33:00 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
I do comment on their photos, but i know i do not have enough knowledge to question their work. And suggest changing it the way i am asking. |
I'm not saying question. I'm saying let them understand your point of view; nobody's right here, it's just "what works for me" and "what works for you" - they got this far partly by considering these different points of view and getting better because of them, so why stop now? And even though I agree wholeheartedly with Roosevelt's The Man in the Arena speech (see the red part), photographers submitting to this site are not "men in the arena" - they're not athletes competing in front of judges while we, the critics who are not in the arena, bash them; they're artists submitting images to be scrutinized (yes, voting can be considered scrutinizing) by us, who are also artists submitting images to be scrutinized; whether we are novices or professionals, it doesn't matter - we submit to everyone on the site and should accept criticism where it's due, just as we accept credit; I respect the better photographers on here, but submitting to be voted on is submitting to be praised or criticized, especially when comments are allowed. If you only agree with the votes and not the comments, why sign up on a site that encourages both? And if you have so much respect for a photographer's work, the LEAST we could do is explain a low score. If you get a 3 in a challenge, don't you want to know why? It's like Obama saying "You like me? Tell me what you agree with. You don't? Good to know, but your opinion doesn't count." |
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09/30/2009 07:41:38 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by ambaker:
One person's "feature" is another person's "flaw". Ask most any Windows user. |
I lol'd. And I agree. But I'm not switching, either - Windows offers the best balance between usability and customizability (I think that's a word). Anyway, back to the topic...
I agree with most of what you said. Let me just add that not only should you "not be surprised if others do not share your views and joy," but you should appreciate the fact that they explained specifically what their views are. I don't really see people leaving comments like "you should do this, you should do that" without an "in my opinion" at the end to clarify that those changes would work for THEM, except where there are flaws that are considered universal (e.g. really bad colors that distract, or very light/dark images where the lightness/darkness is not an intended feature... see my "A Hug And A Kiss" entry for an example of an unintentionally dark image). An example of something that is almost always subjective, on the other hand (and should probably always warrant an explanation and an alternative if the commenter considers it flawed) is composition.
Message edited by author 2009-09-30 19:43:34. |
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09/30/2009 07:42:23 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Consider the remote possibility that you sounded like an arse. |
But I considered you heard no sound. Perhaps written words interpret somewhat differently than
spoken. Even a arse can communicate significant information from time to time. |
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09/30/2009 07:51:35 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
These are definitely two kinds of challenge entries, but there are more than just these two, as well. There are the "I have no idea what I'm doing on any level" entries, the "I just want to win a ribbon, and don't care about anything else" entries, the "I want to experiment with a technique" entries that aren't artistic, deeper in meaning, or meant to further a professional portfolio...
It goes on and on. |
They could all very well fit into the two I described. One would have to see the images. But to clarify what I"m saying, if I'm shooting a wine glass and just toss it on the ground and shine a flash light on it because "don't know what I'm doing", I might end up with something awful or a happy accident. Either way it could be considered art. Now if your doing the same thing but "I just want to win a ribbon and don't care about anything else" then you'd have a commercial mindset. That is your trying to please the client (i.e. masses) to win the contract (i.e. ribbon). Practicing a technique could go either way. Depends on what your practicing and how your doing it. If I'm practicing light on a small statue so that it looks like how it's done in the catalogs then it's commercial. It's art if you are trying to evoke something deep in the viewer.
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09/30/2009 08:02:51 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Consider the remote possibility that you sounded like an arse. |
But I considered you heard no sound. Perhaps written words interpret somewhat differently than
spoken. Even a arse can communicate significant information from time to time. |
Do you have a research team for this stuff? |
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09/30/2009 08:08:09 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by FireBird:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Consider the remote possibility that you sounded like an arse. |
But I considered you heard no sound. Perhaps written words interpret somewhat differently than
spoken. Even a arse can communicate significant information from time to time. |
Do you have a research team for this stuff? |
You're my first subject. :) |
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09/30/2009 10:18:24 PM · #135 |
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10/01/2009 01:58:08 AM · #136 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by lyn100:
If I want you to leave a room I can either fart or politely ask you to leave. Both accomplish the same thing yet one is considered to be more intelligent. Get the point?
You can be as rude as you like. It's not a problem. You didn't understand my point from the first, probably never will. |
Are you saying I should have put more thought into my comment on your response? ;-) |
When applied to comments its a bit ambiguous, are you saying a comment from a novice/intermediate worded as best they can but interpretted by some of the pro's can be interpretted as a fart or are you talking about the very occasisional rude comments I get like 'are you going for brown because if so its worked'.
Must say this is a very depressing thread. |
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10/01/2009 02:09:30 AM · #137 |
Originally posted by ineedauniquename:
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by lyn100:
If I want you to leave a room I can either fart or politely ask you to leave. Both accomplish the same thing yet one is considered to be more intelligent. Get the point?
You can be as rude as you like. It's not a problem. You didn't understand my point from the first, probably never will. |
Are you saying I should have put more thought into my comment on your response? ;-) |
When applied to comments its a bit ambiguous, are you saying a comment from a novice/intermediate worded as best they can but interpretted by some of the pro's can be interpretted as a fart or are you talking about the very occasisional rude comments I get like 'are you going for brown because if so its worked'.
Must say this is a very depressing thread. |
The latter. |
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10/01/2009 05:19:36 AM · #138 |
I could find something I'd like to change on all of them. And it's not "giving them advice," it's telling them what works for me and what doesn't, in case they want to appeal to a larger number of people (including me). They can take it or leave it, but they should (and I'm sure they do) at least appreciate me taking the time to tell them what I liked and didn't like along with giving them a score, whether or not they agree with it or even consider it at all.
Message edited by author 2009-10-01 05:20:24. |
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10/01/2009 06:33:00 AM · #139 |
Originally posted by george917:
I could find something I'd like to change on all of them. And it's not "giving them advice," it's telling them what works for me and what doesn't, in case they want to appeal to a larger number of people (including me). They can take it or leave it, but they should (and I'm sure they do) at least appreciate me taking the time to tell them what I liked and didn't like along with giving them a score, whether or not they agree with it or even consider it at all. |
There's where we differ.......
I don't see any of these stellar urban vignettes as something to examine in a critical way. I see them for the glimpse into the lives of another, both the subject and the photographer. How do you improve on the moment? To me, these are about that moment, and were I voting on a challenge, any technical aspect would be so secondary as to be trivial.
I'd like to think that my appreciation of images such as these is a result of having grown in my understanding of photography during my time here.
YMMV......8>)
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10/01/2009 06:48:49 AM · #140 |
Originally posted by george917:
I could find something I'd like to change on all of them. And it's not "giving them advice," it's telling them what works for me and what doesn't, in case they want to appeal to a larger number of people (including me). They can take it or leave it, but they should (and I'm sure they do) at least appreciate me taking the time to tell them what I liked and didn't like along with giving them a score, whether or not they agree with it or even consider it at all. |
I just want to come back to this and see if I understand where this could go.
You say that you're not "giving them advice", yet you want to tell them what they should do if they want to appeal to a larger number of people.
Doesn't that kind of slot into Steve's idea that maybe the advice should be better thought out? And that perhaps it's presumptuous of you to assume that others think along the same lines as you?
Perhaps, the photographer knoews exactly what he's doing and is offering the images up for view and is totally & completely happy with them the way they are.....after all, he/she had plenty of opportunity while the images were in editing to work them as he/she saw fit.
I've gotten to the point in my photography that I don't submit any more unless the image is exactly as I want it. Occasionally, I'll get a thoughtful, incisive comment that will make me take a look at the image from a different perspective, but for the most part, the last thing I want is for someone to tell me what it needs to be better....I just want your impression, raw and frank.
Obviously, you cannot tell during voting whose entry they are, but if you just saw one of these posted in a thread or in the recently added images, would you still feel free to venture the same opinion knowing that the photog is one of the best here of the genre? Or would you look at the image in the light of what an offering of street photography can say to you from the eye of a talent?
With the exception of the woman in "Rapture", and I have a hard time even seeing that, these images are captures, not studio shots, and the ability to see, and in the moment get the emotion, the setting, the light, and all else that makes a great street shot what it is, so amazingly expressive is a skill most simply don't have. You don't have the luxury of saying "Wait! Freeze! Do that just like that, only look up a little and to the left."
So.....I guess what I'm saying is that I like to see where the balance lies in an image that's presented, be it for a vote, or simply for the sheer pleasure of the enjoyment of the viewer.
I loved 'em.
Message edited by author 2009-10-01 06:54:54.
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10/01/2009 07:24:13 AM · #141 |
I keep seeing the same things repeated by jeb, pawdrix, etc in this thread. I want your frank and raw impression of the image...
but then you immediately contradict that by saying "but I don't want to know if you don't like it, or if you think something should be changed"
What that says to me is "only tell me if you like this, if you don't like it, I don't wanna hear it, only tell me positive things so I can ignore the opportunity to learn anymore then I know right now"
My assumption is that very few people on this site are at the top of the craft. If they were, I doubt they would shilling out images for challenges, they would be selling those images, or entering them into challenges that have an actual payout, or even more so...way to busy with actual gigs to have any free time to sit on a message board and bicker about trivial shit such as this haha. So my take is that everyone that is on this site is here to learn something. They are here to get them to the top of their game, as well as help others do the same. Even the best photogs on here can you a fresh eye on their work now and again. Even the coveted Joey Lawrence can use a critique of his work if he is trying something new and untested. Plus its a good way to stay grounded, to make sure you aren't getting to full of yourself and that you are still learning and not being arrogant.
As someone that doesn't enter challenges, I get my learning from the comments I leave, as well as the comments I see other people have left. Critiquing an image is the best way for everyone to learn.
This thread is quite depressing as someone else pointed out. Im even surprised SC has let it run this far since it is so far off track from the initial post, as well as what it would say to someone new to this site...talk about making someone gun shy on the comments!!
Maybe Langdon needs to add a new functionality to the challenges...a check box for the commentor "is this a critique" or "just a comment about how much the photographer kicks ass and can do no wrong" (its a little wordy, but you get the idea) and then the photographer can filter what he wants to see, to protect ego and "art".
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10/01/2009 07:28:59 AM · #142 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Perhaps, the photographer knoews exactly what he's doing and is offering the images up for view and is totally & completely happy with them the way they are.....after all, he/she had plenty of opportunity while the images were in editing to work them as he/she saw fit. |
So often we fall in love with our own images that we fail to see obvious opportunity for improvement. Especially after staring at it for hours in photoshop and tweaking every bit of it to make sure its exactly how we want it. Thats cool, I have some shit now that I think is perfect on all fronts, but im sure someone can tell me otherwise and probably open up my eyes to it. Go back and look at your favorite image from 5 years ago. Im sure you felt that the image was perfect, and that there was no room for improvement, because it directly conveyed your style and intention at the time. Look at it now and I have a feeling you will have a totally different take on it. Hell I do this with images I took last year.
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10/01/2009 07:31:45 AM · #143 |
And last comment:
Personally, there is nothing worse than everyone telling me and image is perfect, awesome, flawless, etc. Because that means I must be at the top of my game and there is nowhere for me to go at that point. I must be the best photographer in the whole damn world, because nobody will tell me I'm not. It gets really boring. I would say in the school I am now, I'm one of the most experienced photographers, and when we do critiques, its very easy to blow peoples minds with simple lighting and a few cs4 layers, but god damn does it annoy me when the whole class says its good, because that means I've gotten nothing out of the deal. Its then a waste of time for me.
All done. |
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10/01/2009 09:47:32 AM · #144 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
I keep seeing the same things repeated by jeb, pawdrix, etc in this thread. I want your frank and raw impression of the image...
but then you immediately contradict that by saying "but I don't want to know if you don't like it, or if you think something should be changed"
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Till the part whether viewer liked it or not i think frank opinion is always welcome.
the problems where viewer starts to make changes in it according to what he/she wants.
The problem with this is that there are many viewer and many viewers have many honest opinions.
As an artist, i am not interested in viewers opionion about how the art could have been better. Until and unless viewer is educated enough, i have not time to waste on it.
This is what i think we are saying.
So as a viewer if you want artist to listen to you, then work hard in improving your level. Then what you say will carry weight. (think about it on photography whose opinion has more weight -  zxaar or pedro.
Message edited by author 2009-10-01 09:47:58. |
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10/01/2009 09:48:27 AM · #145 |
So you would prefer me just say I dont like it and not tell you why? C'mon.
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10/01/2009 10:12:09 AM · #146 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
So you would prefer me just say I dont like it and not tell you why? C'mon. |
Here's an idea. If there are technical shortcomings in the photo IYO then mention that you do or don't like it and that the photo could benefit from some potential changes on technical merit.
This way you're saying that you like / dislike it and they don't have to be bothered with the specifics of what you find is lacking specifically.
Problem fixed. Oh...wait, what about the other 97% of people that submit photos to challenges? Hmmm...this might leave them wondering and wanting more.
What to do, what to DO?!
Just comment and don't worry about what the 3% that get bothered by your comments think. Pretty simple solution really. :-) |
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10/01/2009 10:17:03 AM · #147 |
| Haha, thats what I do now. If I find osmething I don't like about an image, such as compoisition, lighting, etc, I say so. Going into the voting, I don't know who took what shot, so to be honest, thier level of knowledge is an unknown factor to me. |
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10/01/2009 10:22:22 AM · #148 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
... Going into the voting, I don't know who took what shot, so to be honest, thier level of knowledge is an unknown factor to me. |
That's a great point that really has been overlooked by some in here, unless they want everyone to change their method of commenting to accomodate their minority views. Challenge entries are anonymous (mostly).
So...again, say what you want (within site rules & common decency) - there are many, MANY people out there looking for comments that WILL appreciate them. |
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