| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/25/2009 02:20:56 PM · #301 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
When I build something, the act of building is far more fulfilling than the finished product. |
It's funny, I have this problem in my professional life. I'm a programmer and I love building the projects that I work on. I just hate finishing them. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:21:23 PM · #302 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
I recently realized why I hate air travel so much. When traveling by plane, the goal is to get somewhere, and get there quickly. The journey there is monotonous at best and most everyone will agree that the quicker it is over, the better.
I find that, generally speaking, there are two kinds of people in the world: those that like the destination and those that like the journey, regardless of the destination. I even see it here, where many photographers focus on the end result, while others focus on the act of shooting itself.
It would seem to me, by the nature of the beast and from what I hear in the forums, that those who believe in heaven are more focused on the place than on the getting there. they believe that everything they do is to get them closer to their goal. They believe there must be a goal, a place to get to, and end result to achieve.
Coming from the other side, I can confidently state that those who care more about the journey just want to find a different road to travel. Often they look for 'better' ones, a different way to go; they really have no 'there' in sight, just an idea of the journey they want to travel.
When I build something, the act of building is far more fulfilling than the finished product. When I am shooting pictures, the act of choosing, framing, and deciding is much more interesting than what the results might be. I know others feel differently. Please try to understand that. Just because my goal isn't as concrete as you like, isn't a there, doesn't mean I don't have a goal. You just may not understand that my goal is a constant act, a moving forward and growing, just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-)
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 14:21:42. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:21:24 PM · #303 |
Originally posted by merchillio:
I think that the thing Jeb doesn't like about the "goal issue" is that to him (and to many persons) goal = end. Once you achieved it, you achieved it, your journey is over. He doesn't see a limit to improvement, so he doesn't see a "goal", or finish line a the end of the road. |
That kinda seems awfully simple and straightforward.....could I *possibly* have meant THAT?????....8>)
|
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:24:24 PM · #304 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by dahkota:
I recently realized why I hate air travel so much. When traveling by plane, the goal is to get somewhere, and get there quickly. The journey there is monotonous at best and most everyone will agree that the quicker it is over, the better.
I find that, generally speaking, there are two kinds of people in the world: those that like the destination and those that like the journey, regardless of the destination. I even see it here, where many photographers focus on the end result, while others focus on the act of shooting itself.
It would seem to me, by the nature of the beast and from what I hear in the forums, that those who believe in heaven are more focused on the place than on the getting there. they believe that everything they do is to get them closer to their goal. They believe there must be a goal, a place to get to, and end result to achieve.
Coming from the other side, I can confidently state that those who care more about the journey just want to find a different road to travel. Often they look for 'better' ones, a different way to go; they really have no 'there' in sight, just an idea of the journey they want to travel.
When I build something, the act of building is far more fulfilling than the finished product. When I am shooting pictures, the act of choosing, framing, and deciding is much more interesting than what the results might be. I know others feel differently. Please try to understand that. Just because my goal isn't as concrete as you like, isn't a there, doesn't mean I don't have a goal. You just may not understand that my goal is a constant act, a moving forward and growing, just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
From an air mattress you will never smell the ocean or feel the breeze in your hair. Without a rudder you are simply adrift, at the whim of the winds and currents. There are place I want to go, but no final destination to reach. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:27:34 PM · #305 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
From an air mattress you will never smell the ocean or feel the breeze in your hair. Without a rudder you are simply adrift, at the whim of the winds and currents. There are place I want to go, but no final destination to reach. |
There are many reasons for us to float, not all of them require a destination. Tough thing to grasp for linear thinkers like me but it does exist. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:31:57 PM · #306 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
You have taken the time to write more platitudes.
Won't you please take the time to stand by and justify your previous statements about my clarity, after my repeated requests for you to do so?
Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you simply can't, and are saying things you can't support. That way I can stop worrying about responding.
Own up, disavow, or become irrelevant. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:34:34 PM · #307 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
Funny you brought up boats. My husband and I bought one this summer. It both floats and has a rudder. Every saturday morning we go down to our boat, get on it, and go. We have a GPS system in the boat so we have a map, but we have no idea where we will end up. We know it will be on the water (at least we hope we'll stay on the water) and it will be somewhere on the Chesapeake Bay or its tributaries. We are only limited by time as we have to be back by Sunday afternoon. So far this summer, we have traveled almost 1000 miles visiting random places on the water, stopping when we feel like it, staying for an hour or twenty... Our goal is to enjoy being on the water and being together, learning what we can about the water and the weather and the places we visit. We have no 'there' in mind; the journey in itself is all the there we seek. Am I better for the goal-less journeys I take? I like to think so. I have learned a lot (a boat load if you will) and have found a sense of stillness that doesn't seem to be achievable when always striving for something just out of reach.
whoops - typo.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 14:35:30. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:35:14 PM · #308 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
You have taken the time to write more platitudes.
Won't you please take the time to stand by and justify your previous statements about my clarity, after my repeated requests for you to do so?
Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you simply can't, and are saying things you can't support. That way I can stop worrying about responding.
Own up, disavow, or become irrelevant. |
And once again the anger prevails. I choose not to engage with you anymore as it simply results in senseless baiting and potentially may lead to a conflict which I really have little use for.
If you conclude that I am a fool, I'm certain it is a conclusion you freely dole out to anyone who challenges your persona. I'm okay with that as it matters little to me.
Good luck. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:38:42 PM · #309 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal?
|
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:39:59 PM · #310 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
What is the goal of a tree? It grows, but to what purpose? Can't growth be for it's own sake? |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:40:04 PM · #311 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
You have taken the time to write more platitudes.
Won't you please take the time to stand by and justify your previous statements about my clarity, after my repeated requests for you to do so?
Otherwise I'll be forced to conclude that you simply can't, and are saying things you can't support. That way I can stop worrying about responding.
Own up, disavow, or become irrelevant. |
And once again the anger prevails. I choose not to engage with you anymore as it simply results in senseless baiting and potentially may lead to a conflict which I really have little use for.
If you conclude that I am a fool, I'm certain it is a conclusion you freely dole out to anyone who challenges your persona. I'm okay with that as it matters little to me.
Good luck. |
And once again your assumptions prevail, and your justifications are naught.
Funny, I thought we were talking about faith and atheism, not my 'persona'.
Weak.
And again with the slights. My posts are just baiting, just like my language is suspicious, and how fear controls my 'hidden' faith. Well here I am, Ivo... ready to be the candid poster child for unfaith. I'll leave it up to those around us to judge the veracity of both of our statements, confident in the knowledge that I have better expressed my ideas, with more honesty, more transparency, and (I'd like to think) more truth.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 14:51:57. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:42:03 PM · #312 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
What is the goal of a tree? It grows, but to what purpose? Can't growth be for it's own sake? |
you mean self-gratification? |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:44:56 PM · #313 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
Because I enjoy it. My ultimate goal is to live the best life I can. I don't know what the best life is, since I'm not there yet, and probably never will be. (But just the act of living brings me more happiness than a million days of not living ever could.)
Think of it this way. A runner doesn't know how fast he can run until he runs. But he doesn't know if he can run faster until he runs again. If he ever thinks he's run the fastest and best he ever could, why would he ever run again? Each time he runs, his goal is only to beat the time he set before. Isn't that goal enough? |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:48:19 PM · #314 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
What is the goal of a tree? It grows, but to what purpose? Can't growth be for it's own sake? |
you mean self-gratification? |
Well, if I remove myself from the metaphor, a tree actually grows because those plants that developed the ability to grow were better able to reproduce because they had better access to sunlight and were better able to spead their seeds. Perhaps humans "grow" because by growing we become better able to provide for ourselves and our families. The more experiences you are exposed to, the better you are able to cope with new experiences that might otherwise be threatening. The fact that we find gratification from growth is possibly just the evolutionary mechanism that prompts us to grow. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:49:00 PM · #315 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by Ivo:
A ship without a rudder is still a ship. It floats. If you enjoy floating, who needs a rudder. For that matter, who needs a ship when an air mattress will do the same job. ;-) |
Funny you brought up boats. My husband and I bought one this summer. It both floats and has a rudder. Every saturday morning we go down to our boat, get on it, and go. We have a GPS system in the boat so we have a map, but we have no idea where we will end up. We know it will be on the water (at least we hope we'll stay on the water) and it will be somewhere on the Chesapeake Bay or its tributaries. We are only limited by time as we have to be back by Sunday afternoon. So far this summer, we have traveled almost 1000 miles visiting random places on the water, stopping when we feel like it, staying for an hour or twenty... Our goal is to enjoy being on the water and being together, learning what we can about the water and the weather and the places we visit. We have no 'there' in mind; the journey in itself is all the there we seek. Am I better for the goal-less journeys I take? I like to think so. I have learned a lot (a boat load if you will) and have found a sense of stillness that doesn't seem to be achievable when always striving for something just out of reach.
whoops - typo. |
This is something my dad is trying to learn! When we go out on the boat, he can't sit in one spot for more than 10 minutes before he wants to go rip roar around again. Me on the other hand, Ill drop anchor in one spot and just relax the whole day there. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:50:06 PM · #316 |
| Ivo, if you didn't catch that Mousie is an angry individual from his palpable glee at being able to "demonize the demonizer", you're pretty slow. ;) |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:51:32 PM · #317 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
What is the goal of a tree? It grows, but to what purpose? Can't growth be for it's own sake? |
you mean self-gratification? |
Perhaps humans "grow" because by growing we become better able to provide for ourselves and our families. |
Youre right. Humans grow for purpose of strength, for what at one point was for survival. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:52:02 PM · #318 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ivo, if you didn't catch that Mousie is an angry individual from his palpable glee at being able to "demonize the demonizer", you're pretty slow. ;) |
I have no rudder and therefore it took me a while to get there. ;-) |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:52:29 PM · #319 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
Because I enjoy it. My ultimate goal is to live the best life I can. I don't know what the best life is, since I'm not there yet, and probably never will be. (But just the act of living brings me more happiness than a million days of not living ever could.)
Think of it this way. A runner doesn't know how fast he can run until he runs. But he doesn't know if he can run faster until he runs again. If he ever thinks he's run the fastest and best he ever could, why would he ever run again? Each time he runs, his goal is only to beat the time he set before. Isn't that goal enough? |
i completely understand the concept, i do it myself. and when i ask you questions, i'm really asking myself. you just happen to be the one to put them down in writing. i wonder if this focus of attention is what separates the religious from the non. i mean at some point one finds that self-serving interests are not enough.
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 14:56:11. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:57:13 PM · #320 |
Originally posted by briantammy:
i completely understand the concept, i do it myself. and when i ask you questions, i'm really asking myself. you just happen to be the one to put them down in writing. i wonder if this focus of attention is what separates the religious from the non. i mean at some point one finds that self-serving interests are not enough. |
Self-serving has such a negative implication, but that fails to account for the whole picture. If I perform an act of charity for a complete stranger on the other side of the world, you may look at that as been completely altruistic, but in truth is has the potential of benefiting me directly. I may not use that as the rationale for performing that act, instead saying that I'll do this because it's the "right" thing to do. But the question is where does the determination of what makes it the "right" thing come from. Jason has long argued that it comes from something beyond the material world. I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes.
Edit: typos
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 14:58:10. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 02:58:25 PM · #321 |
| For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 03:01:21 PM · #322 |
Originally posted by eqsite:
Originally posted by briantammy:
i completely understand the concept, i do it myself. and when i ask you questions, i'm really asking myself. you just happen to be the one to put them down in writing. i wonder if this focus of attention is what separates the religious from the non. i mean at some point one finds that self-serving interests are not enough. |
Self-serving has such a negative implication, but that fails to account for the whole picture. If I perform an act of charity for a complete stranger on the other side of the world, you may look at that as been completely altruistic, but in truth is has the potential of benefiting me directly. I may not use that as the rationale for perform that act, instead saying that I'll do this because it's the "right" thing to do. But the question is where does the determination of what makes it the "right" thing come from. Jason has long argued that it comes from something beyond the material world. I would argue that it has become genetically encoded in us because of it's self-serving attributes. |
i agree.
when i referred to "religious" i think i really mean spiritual, i'm not sure of the proper word. i know there are many in religious organizations who are there actually for selfish reasons but i'm referring to mature thinkers who have had many life experiences already. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 03:02:47 PM · #323 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Originally posted by briantammy:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... just for the sake of moving and growing itself. |
why would you want to do that? doesn't that mean you have an ultimate goal? |
Because I enjoy it. My ultimate goal is to live the best life I can. |
Virtue is its own reward.
There are plenty of logical, rational, practical, materialistic reasons to live a life which -- except in the motivation being a commandment from some unknowable enitity -- would otherwise be indistinguishable in any meaningful way from that of a "good Christian," or "good Jew" or "good Muslim" or "good Hindu" or "good Buddhist" or just about any other sect you care to name. I just don't find it necessary to believe in the existence of any kind of "supreme being" or "creator" to find that "do unto others as ..." makes sense for the continuation of the species, with the least amount of suffering of any of its members.
Karen Armstrong (she's been on other interview shows recently besides the one I linked to earlier) stresses that the fundamental basis for all of the major religions is to encourage compassion for others, and a willingness to forego some degree of personal advantage in support of the common good, and that all the arguments over dogmatic particulars are undermining the carrying out of that basic mission. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 03:03:37 PM · #324 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Thanks for making me look up Brownian motion means. I make it a strict rule never to learn anything new on a friday, and you wrecked it.
*edited for my inability to speak english
Message edited by author 2009-09-25 15:12:48. |
|
|
|
09/25/2009 03:06:00 PM · #325 |
Originally posted by AJSullivan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
For all those who enjoy the journey more than the destination, can I ask whether a journey of Brownian Motion would be worthwhile? If you say "yes", then I can see the root of our differences as I would not consider a journey of random movement to be fulfilling. If you say "no", then I would still ask where are you headed? |
Thanks for making me look up Brownian Meant. I make it a strict rule never to learn anything new on a friday, and you wrecked it. |
;-)  |
|
