An unexpected religious conversation...

09/25/2009 01:42:06 PM · #276

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Ok, then what am I missing? Through all of these threads, you continually come back to the reason why you believe there is a non-material world is that there is something outside of it that you feel guides your morality. Is this not similar to a Platonic Ideal?

09/25/2009 01:50:25 PM · #277

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Best? I know I don't have a best, and am unlikely to....I hope to constantly improve with time and experience.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Here's an example of an incoherent statement Jeb. At least how I'm reading it. If you are trying to "constantly improve", what are you improving toward? What is your goal? Would that not qualify as a "best" (ie. you've reached the goal)? If you are just saying you know you will never be as good as you can but you will try anyway, then I agree with you. But if that is your meaning, then you misunderstood my statement.

Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

I constantly strive to be a better photographer.....when am I done? How do I achieve "Best" in that? What criteria is necessary?

If I'm the best wedding photographer on the planet, what about landscapes????

Best is arbitrary, because it's constantly changing. What's best today is unlikely for tomorrow.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

If you drive a car, but have no destination, there is no such thing as "constantly improving" your position. Only if a destination exists can one say you are "better" (ie. closer) than you were before or that you are "striving toward" something. Does that make sense? I was curious as to what Mousie's destination looked like more than whether he was actually going to get there.

Of all the examples to all of the people......8>)

My idea of a fantastic day is to put the top down, get in the car with Lisa and try to get lost. The further I get towards places I've never been before, the better it gets.

I guess I'm just kind of surprised that everything has to be in order for you.

Even though I'm OCD, and like to know where I'm going, I live for the unexpected and delightful surprises, and the discoveries of things I've not yet seen.

I don't need to have answers....I like to, but I'm also realistic enough to realize that the more I discover, the more I realize I don't know.

I *like* that! It's what life is all about, in my humble view.

Ivo

09/25/2009 01:50:32 PM · #278

Originally posted by eqsite:

If I may paraphrase, I think what Jason is talking about is basically the same as Platonic Idealism. The idea that there exists some universal ideal that exists beyond the physical world. So when you are saying you are striving to be better, you are really saying that you are striving toward some universal idea of Best. Where this falls apart for me from a logical standpoint is the lack of agreement over what these universal ideals are. If they are universal, it would seem logical that we could arrive at some agreement about what they look like, and yet there is no such agreement.

This point alone may help explain the anxiety communicated by many who do believe there is "something" larger than our physical existence. Organized religion and deities provide a focus, a goal or an objective. Now whether or not those "objectives" are correct is a very subjective matter. This is the heart of the issue in my opinion.

Mostly all of us agree that there are greater things beyond our borders. A quick test for this is simply by looking up in the sky. If you feel wonderment and humility, you've passed the test. Those with a road map will given purpose and those without will feel frustration as they cannot easily identify their destination. Organized religion, to me, is nothing more than a road map. Whether the destination ultimately leads you to the true answer is the unknown. Faith in a map is paramount and lack of a map is chaotic at best.

09/25/2009 01:51:32 PM · #279

Originally posted by eqsite:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by eqsite:
If I may paraphrase, I think what Jason is talking about is basically the same as Platonic Idealism. The idea that there exists some universal ideal that exists beyond the physical world. So when you are saying you are striving to be better, you are really saying that you are striving toward some universal idea of Best. Where this falls apart for me from a logical standpoint is the lack of agreement over what these universal ideals are. If they are universal, it would seem logical that we could arrive at some agreement about what they look like, and yet there is no such agreement.

I do appreciate your trying to clear things up, but I'm not quite sure this hits at what I was getting at.

Ok, then what am I missing? Through all of these threads, you continually come back to the reason why you believe there is a non-material world is that there is something outside of it that you feel guides your morality. Is this not similar to a Platonic Ideal?

Well, that's actually not bad. But, in the conversation at hand we were a step or two earlier. It seems to me a number of people want to talk about striving toward something, but the goal is never elucidated. I'm just making sure a "best" exists (in their mind) or else I'm just pointing out the irrationality of striving toward it (if it doesn't). The next step would be to assure that the "best" is consistent with Darwinian evolution or once again the particular atheist (or possibly agnostic) worldview is irrational.

09/25/2009 01:53:17 PM · #280

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I have talked to many, many people over the years. I'm just giving you my opinion. You can take it or leave it. My statement was no more judgemental than the backhand of describing most people as being part of "a regimented and rigid belief system".

Are you saying that by and large, Christianity is NOT a regimented and rigid belief system?

As I understand it, it's their way, or the higway(to Hell, to paraphrase AC/DC).

It wasn't intended as a backhand, but as a reasoned statement based on how I've had it explained to me.

Am I mistaken?

09/25/2009 01:54:12 PM · #281

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

If I can't show you the logical error in this statement, perhaps someone else can.

09/25/2009 01:56:02 PM · #282

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Because presumably the same process is working in everybody, ie. Darwinian evolution. On one hand Mousie seemed to say everybody is self-serving and it's hard to break that habit, but then he goes on to say we "strive to do better without being told". Those statements are obviously contradictory and I'm just pointing it out.

I think that presumption is erroneous and dangerous. How can the same process possibly be working in everybody if we're all so different in our views?

Like it or not, that could be said for you and the atheist next door.

Doesn't that kind of cancel out that same process theory?

Certainly a proper believer cannot be a part of the same process as a sociopath, can he?

09/25/2009 01:56:33 PM · #283

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I have talked to many, many people over the years. I'm just giving you my opinion. You can take it or leave it. My statement was no more judgemental than the backhand of describing most people as being part of "a regimented and rigid belief system".

Are you saying that by and large, Christianity is NOT a regimented and rigid belief system?

As I understand it, it's their way, or the higway(to Hell, to paraphrase AC/DC).

It wasn't intended as a backhand, but as a reasoned statement based on how I've had it explained to me.

Am I mistaken?

My statement was no more judgemental. In my experience "coherent" is more synonymous with "rigid" and "regimented" than "flexible" and "unregimented". That's all I'm saying.

09/25/2009 01:57:49 PM · #284

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Because presumably the same process is working in everybody, ie. Darwinian evolution. On one hand Mousie seemed to say everybody is self-serving and it's hard to break that habit, but then he goes on to say we "strive to do better without being told". Those statements are obviously contradictory and I'm just pointing it out.

I think that presumption is erroneous and dangerous. How can the same process possibly be working in everybody if we're all so different in our views?

That is potentially the million dollar question. The material atheist has only one tool in their toolbox. Darwinian evolution. Period.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

09/25/2009 01:59:30 PM · #285

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

What? You must be kidding. I was actually mentioning the part of atheism I find to be attractive and you twist it somehow? Obviously we don't know everything, but atheism (or I should more properly say material atheism) holds that everything is within our grasp. Toss the adjective if you want, but I thought WYSIWYG was apt.

And if you think my mind points me to the logical conclusion there is no God, you have certainly not been paying attention. God, in my view, is inescapable.

Except I just defined an atheism that acknowledges that humanity has its limits and that it's quite possible that WE may never know everything. Right? Didn't I just do that?

The key difference is that athiests don't assign a supernatural explanation to the unknown. It's just 'the unknown'.

Even material atheism acknowledges that while everything is explainable, that explanation may simply be beyond our grasp, or capability to understand. Just because things might be that way doesn't make them magical, it only makes us less than omniscient. Good gravy.

09/25/2009 02:00:38 PM · #286

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by eqsite:
Ok, then what am I missing? Through all of these threads, you continually come back to the reason why you believe there is a non-material world is that there is something outside of it that you feel guides your morality. Is this not similar to a Platonic Ideal?

Well, that's actually not bad. But, in the conversation at hand we were a step or two earlier. It seems to me a number of people want to talk about striving toward something, but the goal is never elucidated. I'm just making sure a "best" exists (in their mind) or else I'm just pointing out the irrationality of striving toward it (if it doesn't). The next step would be to assure that the "best" is consistent with Darwinian evolution or once again the particular atheist (or possibly agnostic) worldview is irrational.

That's fair. Sorry if I've jumped ahead. I'd answer you by saying that, no I don't think there is a Best (Platonically, anyway), because of the reason I stated earlier. However, I can imagine a "best" as something to strive for, but, for me at least, that definition changes over time. Nor do I expect it to be the same "best" that someone else might imagine.

Perhaps this comes down to Ivo's map metaphor. For you there may be a best that has been mapped out and you know what you are working to improve towards, but for me, I place a line in the sand and work toward that knowing that the line might (and probably will) change. Perhaps that is chaotic, but it doesn't bother me if it is.

As for the Darwinian benefit of that improvement, I think that become fairly obvious in the context of a social species. My actions should benefit myself and my immediate family first, my social group next, then my social neighborhood, and expanding outward from there.

09/25/2009 02:02:43 PM · #287

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

If I can't show you the logical error in this statement, perhaps someone else can.

Wow....

You cannot work within a system that doesn't have a specified goal?

LIFE is like that.......quite often you just have to keep plugging along and doing better just because....

Whjat do you do if something goes awry during your quest....stop? Give up? Or do you suck it up, regroup, and move on?

09/25/2009 02:03:01 PM · #288

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by eqsite:
If I may paraphrase, I think what Jason is talking about is basically the same as Platonic Idealism. The idea that there exists some universal ideal that exists beyond the physical world. So when you are saying you are striving to be better, you are really saying that you are striving toward some universal idea of Best. Where this falls apart for me from a logical standpoint is the lack of agreement over what these universal ideals are. If they are universal, it would seem logical that we could arrive at some agreement about what they look like, and yet there is no such agreement.

This point alone may help explain the anxiety communicated by many who do believe there is "something" larger than our physical existence. Organized religion and deities provide a focus, a goal or an objective. Now whether or not those "objectives" are correct is a very subjective matter. This is the heart of the issue in my opinion.

Mostly all of us agree that there are greater things beyond our borders. A quick test for this is simply by looking up in the sky. If you feel wonderment and humility, you've passed the test. Those with a road map will given purpose and those without will feel frustration as they cannot easily identify their destination. Organized religion, to me, is nothing more than a road map. Whether the destination ultimately leads you to the true answer is the unknown. Faith in a map is paramount and lack of a map is chaotic at best.

Perhaps there are those that need a map and those that do not.

09/25/2009 02:06:40 PM · #289

Originally posted by eqsite:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by eqsite:
Ok, then what am I missing? Through all of these threads, you continually come back to the reason why you believe there is a non-material world is that there is something outside of it that you feel guides your morality. Is this not similar to a Platonic Ideal?

Well, that's actually not bad. But, in the conversation at hand we were a step or two earlier. It seems to me a number of people want to talk about striving toward something, but the goal is never elucidated. I'm just making sure a "best" exists (in their mind) or else I'm just pointing out the irrationality of striving toward it (if it doesn't). The next step would be to assure that the "best" is consistent with Darwinian evolution or once again the particular atheist (or possibly agnostic) worldview is irrational.

That's fair. Sorry if I've jumped ahead. I'd answer you by saying that, no I don't think there is a Best (Platonically, anyway), because of the reason I stated earlier. However, I can imagine a "best" as something to strive for, but, for me at least, that definition changes over time. Nor do I expect it to be the same "best" that someone else might imagine.

Perhaps this comes down to Ivo's map metaphor. For you there may be a best that has been mapped out and you know what you are working to improve towards, but for me, I place a line in the sand and work toward that knowing that the line might (and probably will) change. Perhaps that is chaotic, but it doesn't bother me if it is.

As for the Darwinian benefit of that improvement, I think that become fairly obvious in the context of a social species. My actions should benefit myself and my immediate family first, my social group next, then my social neighborhood, and expanding outward from there.

I agree with all of this. I will point out that while you may accept that your line in the sand may change, I doubt you seriously think it's going to change in some diametrical way. Your lines will very likely all lie in the same general direction. My own lines probably change too. I would describe this, however, as my line getting closer to the real line. My knowledge of where that real line was would start out small, but as I gain knowledge, I learn better where that line is and adjust my own line to match as well as possible.

Ivo

09/25/2009 02:06:52 PM · #290

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If I can't show you the logical error in this statement, perhaps someone else can.

Wow....

You cannot work within a system that doesn't have a specified goal?

LIFE is like that.......quite often you just have to keep plugging along and doing better just because....

Whjat do you do if something goes awry during your quest....stop? Give up? Or do you suck it up, regroup, and move on?

In all fairness Jeb, any goal requires a plan to be successfully executed or maintained. This is a universal statement and may apply very well to spiritual pursuits. This has been proven over and over and over. Distractions and events may sway you from your plan but at the end, stick to the map and you more likely get the result you desired in a far more efficient manner.

09/25/2009 02:11:09 PM · #291

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Jeb. Stop and take a breath and go look up the word "better". The logical inconsistency isn't necessarily in your worldview as much as the way you are using friggin English.

Better means nothing without the question "better than what?"
Better cannot exist without best. Good, better, best.

I declare sometimes. Can someone else please help me out here?

09/25/2009 02:11:33 PM · #292

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

In my experience "coherent" is more synonymous with "rigid" and "regimented" than "flexible" and "unregimented". That's all I'm saying.

Coherent?

To describe the Christian religion?

The whole thing must be taken on faith.....on no level does this indicate coherent in my book.

Look, I'm not trying to bust your chops here, but you keep trying to nail me down on things I don't nail myself down on......yet you base much of your life on something that cannot possibly be nailed down, yet has some pretty stringent guidelines to follow.

I'm seeing some pretty serious contradiction in that.....

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/25/2009 02:11:52 PM · #293

Originally posted by eqsite:

Regarding your last paragraph--- isn't this a recipe for disaster? My family is hungry so I steal food from a local store. I am able to do this because I am bigger, stronger, better armed, etc. This would certainly benefit my family at the expense of my community.

I recognize the deep thinkers in this thread, one of which I am not. Maybe my example above is illogical but at least from a survival of the fittest perspective it seems to make sense. In fact, I would say this scenario is fairly common in parts of the world without the regiment of laws and the enforcement of them that we enjoy.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

09/25/2009 02:12:16 PM · #294

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...I would describe this, however, as my line getting closer to the real line.

And this is the crux of the disagreement, then. I would describe my journey as continually traveling on, without a specific destination other than the particular horizon I can see at any given time. The world is not flat, so there is no end to come to (metaphorically speaking of course). That is not to say that my path is aimless, though, just that the destination continually changes.

mpeters

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

09/25/2009 02:14:16 PM · #295

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If I can't show you the logical error in this statement, perhaps someone else can.

Wow....

You cannot work within a system that doesn't have a specified goal?

Jeb. Stop and take a breath and go look up the word "better". The logical inconsistency isn't necessarily in your worldview as much as the way you are using friggin English.

Better means nothing without the question "better than what?"
Better cannot exist without best. Good, better, best.

I declare sometimes. Can someone else please help me out here?

This is how I see it...

It's like declaring a toe fungus medicine to be the "better choice" or the "best". It means nothing with out something to compare it to.

Toe fungus is just pretty close to my hear right now. For reasons left unexplained! :)

merchillio

Nikon D80

09/25/2009 02:14:57 PM · #296

Originally posted by Ivo:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Why must you have a goal just by striving to do better?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If I can't show you the logical error in this statement, perhaps someone else can.

Wow....

You cannot work within a system that doesn't have a specified goal?

LIFE is like that.......quite often you just have to keep plugging along and doing better just because....

Whjat do you do if something goes awry during your quest....stop? Give up? Or do you suck it up, regroup, and move on?

In all fairness Jeb, any goal requires a plan to be successfully executed or maintained. This is a universal statement and may apply very well to spiritual pursuits. This has been proven over and over and over. Distractions and events may sway you from your plan but at the end, stick to the map and you more likely get the result you desired in a far more efficient manner.

I think that the thing Jeb doesn't like about the "goal issue" is that to him (and to many persons) goal = end. Once you achieved it, you achieved it, your journey is over. He doesn't see a limit to improvement, so he doesn't see a "goal", or finish line a the end of the road.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/25/2009 02:15:19 PM · #297

Originally posted by mpeters:

Not necessarily. The community would likely throw you in jail which would not be a benefit to you and your family. Even if you weren't caught, you've then set an example for the rest of the community to follow which would create a much more risky environment for you family to live in. Darwinism is not about short-term survival. Long-term benefits typically outweight short-term gains.

dahkota

Canon EOS-7D

09/25/2009 02:18:37 PM · #298

I recently realized why I hate air travel so much. When traveling by plane, the goal is to get somewhere, and get there quickly. The journey there is monotonous at best and most everyone will agree that the quicker it is over, the better.

I find that, generally speaking, there are two kinds of people in the world: those that like the destination and those that like the journey, regardless of the destination. I even see it here, where many photographers focus on the end result, while others focus on the act of shooting itself.

It would seem to me, by the nature of the beast and from what I hear in the forums, that those who believe in heaven are more focused on the place than on the getting there. they believe that everything they do is to get them closer to their goal. They believe there must be a goal, a place to get to, and end result to achieve.

Coming from the other side, I can confidently state that those who care more about the journey just want to find a different road to travel. Often they look for 'better' ones, a different way to go; they really have no 'there' in sight, just an idea of the journey they want to travel.

When I build something, the act of building is far more fulfilling than the finished product. When I am shooting pictures, the act of choosing, framing, and deciding is much more interesting than what the results might be. I know others feel differently. Please try to understand that. Just because my goal isn't as concrete as you like, isn't a there, doesn't mean I don't have a goal. You just may not understand that my goal is a constant act, a moving forward and growing, just for the sake of moving and growing itself.

09/25/2009 02:19:46 PM · #299

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Better means nothing without the question "better than what?"

I have no problem with that......I feel better!....8>)

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Better cannot exist without best. Good, better, best.

I feel best?

PLEASE don't attempt to bust my chops on the language.....I'm an American.....I'm proud to use it to suit my needs to be able to express myself, which means that I'll use it any way I see fit to try and explain my view.

Nuance, variation, and flexibility have always been a part of the language for me.

Again, I'm merely trying to have you see what I'm saying, not that I want you to accept it, just see it.

I have to get back to work, but I hope that you loosen up some of your views to realize that just about every day, if you're lucky, you can learn something new about this world and the people in it......and with that will come concepts that although they may be alien, they have been arrived at with no less thought and study than the way you are.

That's pretty much why I have given up trying to find categories to slot myself into.....I was constantly falling short and getting depressed about it. I'm just me, warts and all, and I don't expect anybody to see the world the way I do.....just try to understand why I am the way I am, and let me be as long as I don't infringe on them.

Mousie

Canon EOS-5D Mark II